1975 Door DOT/VIN Sticker - Was CA different? Options

[wonkipop]

My 76 mostly original paint car I sold to Dax in begum that was a CA car shows the vin sticker and the misaligned silver Smog sticker for CA

Sorry that the picture is not that good but there you have it.

Bob B

and what your car is showing bob is that all cat/non-cat labels are silver.
no need to worry about the contrasting background color thing - no stamping out holes.

looks like the "turkish apprentice" was given strict instructions on how to achieve the effect.
line one up with inner door jamb. other with outer edge.
set up ex mm from bottom of vin.
despite our jokes it is pretty germanic. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/evilgrin.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blink.gif)

[wonkipop]

Late 74 is also the moment in time that the front trunk chassis plates replacing the rear trunk stamped numbers, and the plastic fuel expansion tanks showed up.

thats interesting too.
front trunk riveted plate replacing stamped trunk numbers is karmann adopting VW practice. VW had been putting the body/production number on that small riveted plate across its entire range since 1970 (except for 914s). even karmann built beetle convertibles and ghias had the rivetted plate since 1970.

you are right that when it changes in 74 its because porsche now controlled the marketing. but i think its in a back to front way. the car was finally recognized as pure VW manufacture. ie no more 914/6s or shared platform across two distinct car companies. which could have been why the riveted plate had been left off since 1970. porsche did not want that recognizable vw plate on its 914/6s? instead wanted the fancy karmann plate which some earlier karmann built 911 bodies had. and back when vw and porsche started the project i think they all assumed the 6 would be a lot more successful than it ended up being. it would have been an early protocol. its a wonder they did not bring the riveted plates in for 73.

EDIT
ps
i did find something about that riveted plate on other VWs when i was looking for those wacky numbered 75 914 karmann plates that @MCShack had spotted.

its got to do with how VW were making their mainstay cars. beetles, buses and type 3s.
those cars had floor pans and separate bodies. i think the floor pans had their own production number as did the bodies. VW introduced a protocol that meant when the two came together halfway down the production line already highly assembled as distinct halves of the car, the whole thing received the production plate at that moment and it was riveted on. easier to do on the moving production? dunno. i'm not sure how true that account was. its kind of not so relevant to uni body cars like the ghias, or 412s or 914s. or even sciroccos. but they introduced it and did it across their range. the 914 was the last car to go over to it.

one more absurd detail.
the VW riveted plates always had the paint code on them as well.
stamped vertically at the start of the plate in rotated letters.
i think the 914s left that off.
paint code stamp stayed on the karmann plate they retained in the door jamb?
must have been a fantastic bureaucratic exercise by managers sweating over that plate.
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[wonkipop]

As I recall Porsche reassumed a controlling interest in the 914 in late 1974, so I wonder if the change in labeling was related to that?

here you go mr b.

911s solder on with earlier VW type layouts - identical to VW apart from having Dr. Porsche AG etc instead of Volkswagen AG. 75 914 labels are not matching these.
they match VW labels from 75 on.

porsche probably using up their box of Vin labels given they didn't pump 911s out the door like VW did with beetles.






how you tell a restored 911 has a replacement label.
porsche were not using the term west germany in 75. they were in 79
its not on an original vin sticker from the 74-75 period.



vw were using west germany around 79 too. also not using that term in 75.
but did slip in "germany" right around that time.

---

have not seen a porsche vin label with just germany written on it like VW did.

i looked into it again to remind myself what that was all about.

prior to 1968, west germany had a formalised understanding with east germany that there was one german nation and they were divided. they settled on/or used the terms western germany and east germany. i think a modification was that east germany was something like the socialist democracy or socialist republic of (east) germany or similar.

in 68 east germany broke the agreement - announced it did not recognise west(ern) germany. they characterised west(ern) germany as a foreign country and not german. in response west(ern) germany reacted in some quarters by adopting the simple name of germany. (ie get stuffed east germany we are it).

at some point by the late 70s they resolved and agreed again that west germany or western germany was recognized and that each other were part of a "greater" divided germany.

i'm sure somehow all that played out in what they wrote (or didn't write) on those labels and manufacturing plates. and whether to put it or not put it on for risk of offending/rebuilding relations with the eastern half. a diplomatic episode.

the west germans were ALWAYS focussed on re-uniting germany. from the minute it was divided after WW2. tenaciously and diplomatically. the east germans less so (in official govt terms).

learned all this from my grandmother and had forgotten half of it.

when i was younger i used to talk about west germany.
she would always say don't call it that, its germany. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/dry.gif)

most folks think the terms western germany, germany and west germany were loosely used throughout the post war period.
not so.
there is a chronology.

it goes.
western germany. then germany. then west germany.
the words are important because they mean subtlely different things.
except for the use of germany alone which was strident and occurred for a time from the middle to later 60s and until the mid to later 70s.
a period sometime after the berlin wall goes up and disappears from use and reappears again after reunification.

[wonkipop]

i'm digging into this now.

a question for the expert.
@JeffBowlsby .

is it true that 1976MY 914s do not have the stamped metal manufacturers ID plate that 74 and earilier 914s have on the side of the headlight bucket and then shifts to the front firewall near the petrol tank on the 75 914s?

[JeffBowlsby]

I dont think of my self as any kind of expert, just a guy interested in the details.

Yep to the question. VIN 4762901920

[mrholland2]

My 76 mostly original paint car I sold to Dax in begum that was a CA car shows the vin sticker and the misaligned silver Smog sticker for CA

Sorry that the picture is not that good but there you have it.

Bob B

The stickers aren't misaligned. The one with the VIN is aligned with the inside guide (the door gasket) and the one about the catalyst is aligned with the outside guide (the bend in the sheet metal). Makes perfect sense. LOL

[MCShack]

Late 74 is also the moment in time that the front trunk chassis plates replacing the rear trunk stamped numbers, and the plastic fuel expansion tanks showed up.

@JeffBowlsby

This is one of the three VIN and Chassis numbering questions that I have been trying to determine. I agree and think it was narrowed down to 04/74 to 05/74 where I started finding a Chassis tag in the front trunk recessed spare tire area below the right headlight bucket. The same thing goes for not finding the Chassis No. stamp in the rear trunk floor near the passenger side taillights which were closer to the rear trunk lock in earlier years. I have no idea when that change occurred, so I may have to add that to my list of VIN and Chassis numbering projects.

[JeffBowlsby]

What to make of this label?

[wonkipop]

@JeffBowlsby

thanks for that answer on stamped metal manuf. plate jeff.

question prompted by karmann built vw beetles i looked at after @MCShack brought up the strange k numbers of some 75 MY 914s.

i noticed the stamped metal manuf plate disappeared off beetles.
it was in a highly visible position in the front trunk.
disappeared for 76 MY beetles.
thought at first these were cars that lost them during restoration.
but every beetle sales documentation i came across did not have them.

i looked at some standard beetles made at wolfsburg.
the plate disappeared on those too.

the following thoughts would only apply to cars bound for the USA market.

VW dropped the old style metal manufacturers plate during or at the end of the 75MY across the range. it introduced a new style plate with the water cooled cars coming in.

i believe what happened is that VW stopped putting two similar plates/labels on american market cars at the end of 75MY.

instead those cars got the Vin sticker label only.
it had the legal status in the USA anyway, the other old style metal plate was redundant.

all the way up to the end of the 75 MY the metal plate had stamped on it
MADE IN GERMANY. the vin label lacked country of origin during 70-74/5 MY.

the reason they redesign the layout of the vin label to give themselves space at the top is to include country of origin. since they are going to get rid of the manuf plate.

again, this is only USA cars.
I believe other VW models, including the ROW 76 914 would have retained the manuf plate. i'm guessing the plate went over to a new design.
i'm further guessing the new designed of the plate was the same or similar to what i have seen on golf mark 1's in the UK.
but i have never seen a 76 ROW 914.
i don't fully understand the whys of that - but i believe its possible that just like the USA adopted the Vin Label dictated by law in 69, the european countries (EU market) adopted their own standardised Vin system in around 76 and the old manuf plate was not up to the standard. ROW cars up to that time only have the manuf plate.

-------

early golf manufacturer (or is it euro vin?) plate.
this might be a repro but they are something close to this.
a 76 ROW 914 probably had something resembling this and likely in the front trunk?





---------

MADE IN GERMANY.

this is how it goes with the VW manuf plate or later vin labels across german built range.

up to end of 1964MY - MADE IN WESTERN GERMANY



from 65MY to end of 75 MY (approx) - MADE IN GERMANY



after this point old manuf plate ceases.

USA Vin Labels - GERMANY. (only name of country, drop the term "made in").
from late in 75MY until end of production of 914s.
courtesy of DaveP's run of 914 Vin Labels posted previously.



by 79MY - on german built VW range it becomes - WEST GERMANY.
not sure when the change in name happens at what model year.
but by 79 it has happened.




________

the rare vin label.
as davep has shown us, there is a rare label.
looks like the one with germany on it at the top line but does not have the name of country in yet.

its either a mistake label. and it could be.

or.

its a registration of a short moment in time where there is hesitation about what should go there. what is the name of the country?
the discussions were happening around this time in (West) Germany.
so at first the labels get nothing. (don't need to, still have manuf plate in frunk).
then they settle on GERMANY as they have been using it since 1965 (though its offensive to the East Germans and had led to the blow up in relations in 1968/9). and then shortly after that maybe a year, two years later, it goes to WEST GERMANY (the name that was finally acceptable to both East and West Germany.

the davep collection is fantastic.
that one sticker that only lasts a little while with the space ready for the name.
there will be i have no doubts plenty of other models across the VW range that recieved that label for a short time during the 75MY.

and then Germany appears a little forlornly for a couple of years.
because something has to go there.
and then you get WEST GERMANY.

------

all the badges and plates on 914s are a great little record of history.
the old karmann plate looking like it was unchanged since some time in the 50s.
WESTERN GERMANY.
the manuf plate which was provocative and is a response to the berlin wall and the high point of the cold war.
GERMANY.
then usa vin labels which are kind of coy and have nothing - until they have to.

if the 914s had lasted a few more years they would have worn WEST GERMANY on the vin label.
did not quite make it to that point in time.

-----------

i think thats the reason the vin labels get redesigned.
nothing to do with porsche vw company internal relations over a sub contracted car agreement.

[JeffBowlsby]

1976 914s were USA market only. No ROW 76 914s.

[wonkipop]

1976 914s were USA market only. No ROW 76 914s.

well that absolutely clarifies the point about the manuf plate.
they don't need one.
the Vin Label in the door is all they require for the USA.
the other one served no purpose.

but that vin label had to have country of origin on it.
the act stated it. its an imported car.
they must have been getting around that requirement for a few years due to the manuf id plate in the front trunk. fed authorities must have accepted that in the interim.

they did sell karmann beetle cabriolets to the rest of the world.
those would have something like a different manuf plate in them.
you won't come across one of those in a BAT ad unless someone was selling a grey market car, which is pretty unlikely.

i might seem to be being pedantic about term germany on these labels.
but i think if you went back into history of international relations at that time it will all be there.
international recognition of west germany would have hung on its acceptable name.
so what got written on those labels as country of origin was legal in nature in relation to international law and trade agreements. ie - what did the USA recognise as the name of what we once called West Germany from the late 70s to the end of the 80s.

for insight into this in the present day look no further than taiwan.

[MCShack]

What to make of this label?

Now that's a funny one, I've had that in my database of 914s with odd VIN or Chassis number for one reason or another. I found this question on Pelican:

"I'm considering a 1975 914 in Burgundy with a cream interior being sold by a car dealer in Syosset NY. It's a 1.7 liter and a beauty with only 17,567 miles on it. The interior is all original. Virtually no wear. I haven't seen it in person but the extensive pictures show no rust. the vin is 4752901632. The car was repainted it's original color at some point, but it was a quality job so it looks factory."

Obviously should not be a 1.7 liter, most likely a 1.8L, but just a coincidence that you posted that one. The "9" is a little funky in the VIN, 1 too many dots?

Here are more pics including VIN and Chassis tag of 1632:

(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/uploads_offsite/cdn.dealeraccelerate.com-25305-1647381820.1.jpg)(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/uploads_offsite/cdn.dealeraccelerate.com-25305-1647381820.2.jpg)(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/uploads_offsite/cdn.dealeraccelerate.com-25305-1647381820.3.jpg)(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/uploads_offsite/cdn.dealeraccelerate.com-25305-1647381820.4.jpg)

[wonkipop]

@JeffBowlsby

the 76 914 sort of proves something.
in the USA the vin label in the door is the legal vehicle identification label and technically you should not tamper with it.

i've read all sorts of stuff researching things for this about those vin labels stating athey are anything from emissions compliance to whatever blah.

no. thats the vin plate in america. period.


and of course the 76 is USA only because they start selling 924s in europe that MY.
the 924s get to the USA a year later.

i might go take a look at 924s.
we got them here from the start i think - but not sure.
sometimes RHD was also the year after as well.
they will probably have that new style vin plate from VW.

[wonkipop]

What to make of this label?

Now that's a funny one, I've had that in my database of 914s with odd VIN or Chassis number for one reason or another. I found this question on Pelican:

"I'm considering a 1975 914 in Burgundy with a cream interior being sold by a car dealer in Syosset NY. It's a 1.7 liter and a beauty with only 17,567 miles on it. The interior is all original. Virtually no wear. I haven't seen it in person but the extensive pictures show no rust. the vin is 4752901632. The car was repainted it's original color at some point, but it was a quality job so it looks factory."

Obviously should not be a 1.7 liter, most likely a 1.8L, but just a coincidence that you posted that one. The "9" is a little funky in the VIN, 1 too many dots?

Here are more pics including VIN and Chassis tag of 1632:

(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/uploads_offsite/cdn.dealeraccelerate.com-25305-1647381820.1.jpg)(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/uploads_offsite/cdn.dealeraccelerate.com-25305-1647381820.2.jpg)(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/uploads_offsite/cdn.dealeraccelerate.com-25305-1647381820.3.jpg)(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/uploads_offsite/cdn.dealeraccelerate.com-25305-1647381820.4.jpg)

sometimes its helpful to look further across the VW range,
answers to some of these questions can be found there.

for instance the vin label jeff points to used for a short period of time from davep's collection. out there may well be buses and beetles from the same months with a similar sticker.

you are not necessarily going to find it on porsches - ie 911s. they are not built by VW.

that karmann number though sure is interesting @MCShack .

[JeffBowlsby]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/poke.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/happy11.gif)

Look for Recall Campaign HC: https://bowlsby.net/914/Classic/Recalls.htm

[wonkipop]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/poke.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/happy11.gif)

Look for Recall campaign HC: https://bowlsby.net/914/Classic/Recalls.htm

fantastic.

right.
so do those labels that are recalled overlap deletion of manuf plate or are they still on the cars as well.

its 75 when those labels without germany on them happen. jan/feb 75 approx.
when do they drop the manuf id plate, is it just for 76 or is sometime in 75? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/poke.gif)

reason i ask is, there might well be a clue as to when they stop making the cars for europe. the cut off date. if that vin label is all they put on cars after a certain date then they were directing all prdduction only to america?

and if they muddled it in 75 for a couple of months and did not have the old id plates anymore they were in strife. nothing on the cars to say where they were from, country of origin.

[JeffBowlsby]

Mickeys post above depicts that the car is fully labelled and plated. Unintentionally, as it turns out and it would have been conflictingly had the recall label been installed. Yet the recall was only for the 'official' VIN label (Safety Compliance Label), where this car evidently did not have the recalled label replaced.

Might be better actually. Think of getting the recall letter a few months after purchase and the hassles created with changing the VIN on the cars title and registration. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)

[wonkipop]

^ admittedly they did have karmann plates.

but they were legally BS.
had made in western germany on it, a redundant no longer recognized name for a country and no vin number, just an internal production number.

the vin law was pretty clear.
vin number etc and country of origin/manufacture.

they had their arses covered when they had two plates.

[wonkipop]

right.

so they were still doing both at that stage.

which means the label change and then recall was likely fed/DOT/authority induced?

they had been getting away with not having country of origin on vin labels to that point.
but the feds must have reeled them in on it?

i guess the manuf id plate had the vin chassis number next to country of origin and they let them do it for a while but then someone decided the id plate absolutely did not conform. non contrast. incorrect location. possibly not tamper proof.

and either someone bungled it at the printer and didn't print germany on the labels which were now it as far as the feds were concerned.
which is entirely possible.

or they hesitated. for some reason.

its very interesting. germany only lasts for a few years or maybe only 1 on those vin labels.

i'm pretty sure the plates the golfs get in 75 for 76 MY have West Germany on them.
whatever it was it was going down in that period.

looks like they had to settle for writing germany in for whatever reason for about a years worth of car production maybe. would need to dig up some more beetle cab vins as that pinpoints when germany stops being used in international legal terms.

[wonkipop]

ok

here are the vin stickers on 912E s
these cars are what porsche replaces 914s with in second half of 76 MY.

i checked a few just in case i was looking at restos with suss reproductions.
(one of these vins doesn't looked punched but the other looks original)
looks like this is what they are. might try to find some more just to be 100%

WEST GERMANY.

by late 1975/new year 1976 the question has been settled?
its west germany under international law, and the recognized name is adopted.

i'll go look for some karmann cabrios around that time too. see what there is.

i appreciate all the tracking of details and huge data base you guys have built up.
tracks all the little details and glitches around authenticity etc in cars.

but i'm sticking with my hunch that not having germany on that batch of Vins is not a clerical error. its a hesitation. GERMANY was supposed to go over to WEST GERMANY and it didn't happen on time and they kind of dilly dallied but have to give in and keep using GERMANY. it only lasts 1 year.

doesn't change the facts of the glitch vin sticker.
just gives a cultural explanation for it rather than keeping the gaze restricted to internal company relations or internal porsche vw business stuff. sometimes its bigger picture stuff explains things?

why i find original objects more interesting that restored objects.
although i admit, 30 years ago i would have been a reckless restorer.