914 GT 3.6 Ferrari Build, - Mechanicals coming along, electronics soon! Options

[tygaboy]

The factory headers arrived today. Surprisingly light, considering how big they seem to look.

[tygaboy]

And in place, they look the business. You can see how the tubes sweep up, forward then back around.

I did some guesstimeasuring on the width and fore/aft size and in checking the space between the suspension consoles, they may actually fit. The real issue is that the O2 sensors stick out the sides so those may not fit.
This may be OK in that 360 headers tend to rot from the inside out, being wrapped in the shielding that you see here. It seems good ones, which these are (!) are quite desirable/valuable. We can sell/swap these and get a set to cut up to better suit the needs of this build. Or make something from scratch that's modeled on the factory tubes. We shall see.

Speaking of those O2 sensors, here's some interesting stuff you likely don't care about: This engine has a flat plane crank, which is what virtually all 4-cylinder engines use. So what did Ferrari decide to do? Run this engine as two, separate 4-cylinders!
There are two of everything: cam sensors, crank sensors, knock sensors, O2 sensors, fuel tanks, fuel pumps, throttle bodies and engine ECUs. Yep, two. Each ECU runs 1/2 the engine.

Won't this just be the best, trying to figure out all this stuff? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wacko.gif)

[FourBlades]

Another amazing project!

Can't wait to watch this unfold. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

Definitely in the right hands to make this happen.

John

[tygaboy]

The Milestone mornings just keep coming!
Yesterday, the chassis arrived. Today, my Ferrari-savvy buddy came by and gave the engine, trans and some other components the once over. Spoiler Alert:

It passed with flying colors! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/aktion035.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smilie_pokal.gif)
He kept saying how nice everything looked, none of the typical corrosion on the various external surfaces, etc. Stop here if don't care about the details.

Details:
Up first, he outlined the maintenance services and related parts I need to take care of ahead of attempting to fire it: the most obvious being cam belts, pulleys and tensioners. He also advised on a couple other "while you're at it" seals and gaskets.

Then we pulled the plugs and borescoped the cylinders. So little carbon on top of the pistons that you could easily see the machining marks. Beautiful cross-hatching visible on all the cylinder walls. And the plugs all read "nice burn".
Then off came the induction and he did a quick inspection of the back sides of the intake valves. Nothing make you breath easy like hearing an expert say, "Wow. This all looks really nice..." (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cheer.gif)
You already know this but I'll repeat it: The motor, she is good!

An additional bonus is he knows all the places to get parts and happens to be a dealer for some of the components I need.
It's things like where to get parts to re-core the water pump vs buying new, contacts at a place the modifies the clutch to make them last far longer, a source for a greatly improved throw-out bearing. The list went on.
It was great to have a knowledgeable person get me pointed in the right direction and even better to know we can proceed with confidence that we have a solid drive train.
A great day at the Red Barn! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

[Cairo94507]

Congratulations. That is the way to start a project; great chassis and great drivetrain.

[Andyrew]

Awesome!!!! I am really glad to hear that it’s fully green lit!

[Shivers]

There are two of everything: cam sensors, crank sensors, knock sensors, O2 sensors, fuel tanks, fuel pumps, throttle bodies and engine ECUs. Yep, two. Each ECU runs 1/2 the engine.

Won't this just be the best, trying to figure out all this stuff? wacko.gif

@tygaboy


Was there such a wide variation between the two banks that made that necessary? Or was this a "Ford has a better idea" thing. Well, after watching you wire up the LS car, you are probably their best chance of success. Good luck

[jcd914]

There are two of everything: cam sensors, crank sensors, knock sensors, O2 sensors, fuel tanks, fuel pumps, throttle bodies and engine ECUs. Yep, two. Each ECU runs 1/2 the engine.

Won't this just be the best, trying to figure out all this stuff? wacko.gif

@tygaboy


Was there such a wide variation between the two banks that made that necessary? Or was this a "Ford has a better idea" thing. Well, after watching you wire up the LS car, you are probably their best chance of success. Good luck

Ferrari has done this before, I ran into it on an F40 I had the pleasure of maintaining for a few years.
Two Weber FI & Ignition control units each running 1 bank of the engine separately, although 1 also controlled the idle speed and the other controlled the boost pressure.
It was an interesting system.

Jim

[tygaboy]

@shivers - I'm a newbie to all things Ferrari so I can only guess as to why a "two of everything" approach.
My guess is it was lower cost and quicker time-to-market to employ available, well proven 4-cyl tech (these are Bosch ECUs and used on other model cars) than to spec something unique.
Clearly it works! This same set up is used on both the street 360s and the Challenge Stradale (CS) model. The only difference being a reflash done on the CS units that give a 10 hp bump. And I'm assuming I'll have to reflash anyway to eliminate the immobilizer function. Maybe we go CS spec? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/happy11.gif)

My Ferrari buddy is, as mentioned, a MoTec dealer and he STRONGLY recommended staying with the factory ECUs, given how well the stock tune works. The induction system on this engine is pretty complex and he suspected it'd take a TON of dyno time/testing to even come close to what the stock set up delivers.

I'm going with the expert's advice.

[tygaboy]

Drive train mounting: Initial planning
I initially assumed this part would be easy. Just do it like my LS. I mean, the Ferrari has mounts on the side of the block, same as the Chevy, so just run a cross bar underneath and work out how that'll mount to the chassis. Easy!

Turns out, not so much. Being a dry sump, there's no room for a cross bar. We'll there is a small area towards the rear of the engine, but it's in the way wrong place, relative to the mounts on the block. So, I started looking for info on how the engine mounts in the 360 chassis.

SURPRISE! The one video I found shows it being removed out the top of the car. Not what I'd expected. You can see in the pic, the chassis has the two outriggers that support the engine mounts. I could do something like this but then the engine would have to go in/out from above - which means all the rear of car chassis stiffening and transaxle mount would have to bolt in. I don't think I want to go that way.

I'll get into more detail later but at this point, it's looking like there will be a couple removeable, intermediate "hanger mounts" that will bolt to reinforced areas on the chassis to provide those "landing pads" for the engine mounts. These will bolt in once the engine is raised up from underneath. For transaxle mount, there'll be a cross bar/support structure, similar to what's in my LS car, that will grab that single trans mount.

Lots more planning to do but I think I'm getting an idea of how it'll all work.

[ClayPerrine]

Drive train mounting: Initial planning
I initially assumed this part would be easy. Just do it like my LS. I mean, the Ferrari has mounts on the side of the block, same as the Chevy, so just run a cross bar underneath and work out how that'll mount to the chassis. Easy!

Turns out, not so much. Being a dry sump, there's no room for a cross bar. We'll there is a small area towards the rear of the engine, but it's in the way wrong place, relative to the mounts on the block. So, I started looking for info on how the engine mounts in the 360 chassis.

SURPRISE! The one video I found shows it being removed out the top of the car. Not what I'd expected. You can see in the pic, the chassis has the two outriggers that support the engine mounts. I could do something like this but then the engine would have to go in/out from above - which means all the rear of car chassis stiffening and transaxle mount would have to bolt in. I don't think I want to go that way.

I'll get into more detail later but at this point, it's looking like there will be a couple removeable, intermediate "hanger mounts" that will bolt to reinforced areas on the chassis to provide those "landing pads" for the engine mounts. These will bolt in once the engine is raised up from underneath. For transaxle mount, there'll be a cross bar/support structure, similar to what's in my LS car, that will grab that single trans mount.

Lots more planning to do but I think I'm getting an idea of how it'll all work.

Why couldn't you make a support frame that bolts to the engine/transmission. Then make the support frame bolt to the 914-6 mounts on the firewall and to the factory trans mounts in the rear. You can then just raise up the front of the engine, hook it to the mounts on the firewall, and pivot it up into place.

Just a thought (IMG:style_emoticons/default/idea.gif)

[tygaboy]

Drive train mounting: Initial planning
...


Why couldn't you make a support frame that bolts to the engine/transmission. Then make the support frame bolt to the 914-6 mounts on the firewall and to the factory trans mounts in the rear. You can then just raise up the front of the engine, hook it to the mounts on the firewall, and pivot it up into place.

Just a thought (IMG:style_emoticons/default/idea.gif)

@ClayPerrine
Great minds... As I was out noodling on it I stumbled on that same sort of idea. A cradle, not a cross bar. Funny how looking at my LS set up for so long put me in a particular mind set and how sometimes it's hard to see a new/different approach.
Still a lot to work out and not sure where it'll end up but please keep the input coming! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/pray.gif)

[Chris914n6]

My best guess for the 2 ECUs is 2 MAFs. Not a signal that is easy to combine and average at 8700 rpm.

If the senders are 180 apart then it's likely the same ECU for both and any difference is a pin-out.

I'd try fab a cradle and use the existing -6 mounts, but I haven't seen the factory isolators.

[racerbvd]

Subscribed

[targa72e]

Two ECU's is not just a Ferrari thing. The BMW 850 ( V12) used two separate ECU's as well.
I had a roommate in the 80's that worked at a Porsche shop that also serviced some customers exotic cars as well. I would go and help out for fun when I could. They had a grey market Lamborghini Countach they were working on. It was federalized with BMW CIS systems, one on each side of the engine. I got to go for a ride from there shop over to one across town that specialized in BMW's so they could get the CIS system adjusted correctly. Car would not run well below 3K so we had to keep the reves up. It was quite fun. Car also had straight pipes and sounded wonderful.

john

[Andyrew]

Or you could build removable mounting points from the chassis. Triangulated or whatnot. Would be lighter than a sub frame and less tubes to get in the way.

[Retroracer]

Chris - RE: Engine cradles and such: More food for thought in the shape of what Ferrari did with the 348 model (see pic). The removable cradle extended to mounting the suspension components, actually forming part of the car chassis. Boxster struts and lower links might be substituted...?

You would likely end up removing a lot of metal in the rear of the 914 chassis to do something like this which you may not be comfortable with.

Something to think about,

- Tony

[r_towle]

Is it running yet?

[Superhawk996]

Is it running yet?

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/lol-2.gif)

[Cairo94507]

You would likely end up removing a lot of metal in the rear of the 914 chassis to do something like this which you may not be comfortable with.

I had to laugh at this -great way to start the day. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)