Memory lane, 2004 Options

[ChrisFoley]

Maybe someday Chris will sell me that 1.8L... - GA

That's my B engine, estimated 150hp.
My 180hp A engine needs rings.
(Either engine is available for purchase.)

[Charles Freeborn]

Misread the most recent posts. I thought you guys were talking about vintage classing. Would be great to see some 914s in SCCA Prod classes, it's been a while.

If i were 20 years (maybe 30) younger I'd be going after a production class car, but it would be a labor of love. In my mind the limiting factor is getting a pushrod engine to spin fast and powerful enough to compete with modern tech. That's given one wants to stick with the T4 / 4 cyl base.
Building and maintaining a 6 is well out of my range, given vintage Porsche values...

[GregAmy]

Opinions follow...

As much as I'd love to see a 914 competitive in Prod, I think out would HAVE to be a labor of love. Here's the results from the 2023 Runoffs (check out that guy in an EP Civic that only made it 1-1/4 laps):

https://www.scca.com/pages/2023-scca-runoffs-results

E Production: Big engines class. 2.5L BMWs. Maybe a Z car with a Rebello engine (if it were driven well, unlike the ones I was racing with mid-pack). 2nd-gen Mazda RX-7s driven particularly well (like Hainsworth's). Your engine builder will be your best friend (and you, his).

I just don't see a 4-banger full-prep Type 4 2L bringing the kind of numbers needed to compete in EP, especially since the '24/'25 Runoffs are at America's Dyno, Road America. Even with a 600# weight advantage - assuming you can get it down to 1800-ish with driver - you're going to need 225+ ponies to compete. And it'll be fragile.

As noted above, Kip van Steenburg has a 2L 6-banger that's showing potential, but it's fragile: it appeared at the 2021 and 2022 Runoffs but was withdrawn during the test days. Watch for that car to eventually get sorted and maybe John Hainsworth driving it.

F Production: Miatas and Hondas/Acuras. Miatas bring the handling and braking, Honda brings the power.

IMO, it's a tough row to hoe for the 914. The 1.8L full-prep 914 has neither the power of the Hondas nor the handling/braking of the Miatas. You can run alternate brakes now in Prod (+2% weight) but you're still scrapping against those two marques.

The limited-prep 2L may have a chance, given it's allowed dual Webers/Dells. Can you get a reliable 150hp for its 2030# (with driver; 2083# with alternate gear ratios)? But it's all limited prep, so think Improved Touring spec chassis with slicks.

H Production: SCCA finally allowed 2L engines into HP, and the water-cooled VWs are shining there. Chris Schaafsma has won HP two years on the trot, and he has a really well built, and well-driven, Golf. Steve Sargis in the full-prep Triumph is always in the mix, as is Vesa Siligren in the limited-prep Honda CRX.

But SCCA is only allowing the 1.8L 914 into HP right now, and only at Limited Prep -- and you have to keep the fuel injection (though it can be Microsquirted). That's basically Improved Touring-spec with cams. MAYBE the 1.8L limited prep has a chance in HP at 2100# (2153# if you swapped out factory gear ratios)? It would take a dedicated effort, I think, to fully develop the car - as noted it's basically a strong IT effort on slicks.

I think that SCCA would eventually allow the LP 2L into HP, but someone needs to drive one in FP to demonstrate it. My historics racer is an ex-ITA prep chassis and the engine is very much within the specs of Limited Prep Prod. I have no idea what my plans are for '24 but maybe I'll buy/borrow an AIM Solo (it's what SCCA uses), get the engine dyno'd and the car weighed, and run a couple Regionals to send that data to the CRB for consideration. We'll see...

GA

[jd74914]

E Production: Big engines class.

As noted above, Kip van Steenburg has a 2L 6-banger that's showing potential, but it's fragile: it appeared at the 2021 and 2022 Runoffs but was withdrawn during the test days. Watch for that car to eventually get sorted and maybe John Hainsworth driving it.

Any idea whatever happened to Erik Madsen's (spelling?) EP car?

[Charles Freeborn]

Opinions follow...

As much as I'd love to see a 914 competitive in Prod, I think out would HAVE to be a labor of love. Here's the results from the 2023 Runoffs (check out that guy in an EP Civic that only made it 1-1/4 laps):

https://www.scca.com/pages/2023-scca-runoffs-results

E Production: Big engines class. 2.5L BMWs. Maybe a Z car with a Rebello engine (if it were driven well, unlike the ones I was racing with mid-pack). 2nd-gen Mazda RX-7s driven particularly well (like Hainsworth's). Your engine builder will be your best friend (and you, his).

I just don't see a 4-banger full-prep Type 4 2L bringing the kind of numbers needed to compete in EP, especially since the '24/'25 Runoffs are at America's Dyno, Road America. Even with a 600# weight advantage - assuming you can get it down to 1800-ish with driver - you're going to need 225+ ponies to compete. And it'll be fragile.

As noted above, Kip van Steenburg has a 2L 6-banger that's showing potential, but it's fragile: it appeared at the 2021 and 2022 Runoffs but was withdrawn during the test days. Watch for that car to eventually get sorted and maybe John Hainsworth driving it.

F Production: Miatas and Hondas/Acuras. Miatas bring the handling and braking, Honda brings the power.

IMO, it's a tough row to hoe for the 914. The 1.8L full-prep 914 has neither the power of the Hondas nor the handling/braking of the Miatas. You can run alternate brakes now in Prod (+2% weight) but you're still scrapping against those two marques.

The limited-prep 2L may have a chance, given it's allowed dual Webers/Dells. Can you get a reliable 150hp for its 2030# (with driver; 2083# with alternate gear ratios)? But it's all limited prep, so think Improved Touring spec chassis with slicks.

H Production: SCCA finally allowed 2L engines into HP, and the water-cooled VWs are shining there. Chris Schaafsma has won HP two years on the trot, and he has a really well built, and well-driven, Golf. Steve Sargis in the full-prep Triumph is always in the mix, as is Vesa Siligren in the limited-prep Honda CRX.

But SCCA is only allowing the 1.8L 914 into HP right now, and only at Limited Prep -- and you have to keep the fuel injection (though it can be Microsquirted). That's basically Improved Touring-spec with cams. MAYBE the 1.8L limited prep has a chance in HP at 2100# (2153# if you swapped out factory gear ratios)? It would take a dedicated effort, I think, to fully develop the car - as noted it's basically a strong IT effort on slicks.

I think that SCCA would eventually allow the LP 2L into HP, but someone needs to drive one in FP to demonstrate it. My historics racer is an ex-ITA prep chassis and the engine is very much within the specs of Limited Prep Prod. I have no idea what my plans are for '24 but maybe I'll buy/borrow an AIM Solo (it's what SCCA uses), get the engine dyno'd and the car weighed, and run a couple Regionals to send that data to the CRB for consideration. We'll see...

GA

Spot on. I think I'll stick to the Vintage groups - for now at least. Many thanks for the clarificaions.
-C

[stownsen914]

Any idea whatever happened to Erik Madsen's (spelling?) EP car?

I recall that he parted it out. I wonder where the chassis wound up. I believe he is @Thorshammer on the forum. Maybe he can tell us (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Thorshammer]

Hello Everyone!

Sorry, a little late to the party. After the 05 Runoffs, my 914-6 race car was parted out. I tried unsuccessfully to sell it as a package. The JongBloed wheels, Hewland, and Ohlins shocks went to to a guy to build a very nice FP car, but I don’t think it ever competed, and last I knew, it was still in his home garage. The complete engine went to Texas, to be used in a vintage car, and I have never heard from the owner.

[Thorshammer]

Oh, and the 2.0 six is not fragile in anyway, shape or form if you build it from the right parts, and gave the right machinist…

[Brett W]

I am with Greg, I gave up on the idea of building a Prod 914 back in 05 when I watched what it took for Finch's old car to win and for Eric to come in second (I slept once since that day).

In EP there is no way you will get the durability out of the T4, It can't make the power required reliably. I doubt you can make the power reliably out of a six cylinder either. At best its gonna make 230, MAYBE on a good day.

The chassis has a lot of issues the require a full blown rethink, Kevin Groot was headed in the right direction way back then. The modern stuff is just so much faster, its not worth the headache.

The front running Z3s currently make north of 270hp and the 944 is maybe a wee bit north of that.