914 Windshield inside OEM Glass Sticker logo?, Anyone making these OEM Windshield Mfg. Stickers Options

[vitamin914]

the weird logo in the sudglas screen is not a company logo.
its the british standards marking.
a lot of euro market cars carried it.
a lot of aussie cars had it too back in those days.
likely never on USA car windscreens.

Absolutely correct. It is known as a kitemark. We called it a kite for short.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kitemark

[vitamin914]

Interesting. Can you decipher the date or date code from the first photo above?

Unfortunately I can't. The codes all depend on how the manufacturer sets them up.

Since I worked at PPG I knew their system. DOT 18 was PPG.

Some of it was standardized... The M number defines the glass makeup and processing - I vaguely remember the M number had to be registered with UL or CSA as standards conformance testing had to be proven for the thickness, materials and processing of that configuration. Testing included ball drops, penetration, broken shard size, etc. US standards differ a bit from Euro.

AS1 mark defines the primary vision area - the windshield. AS2 is secondary vision areas like side and rear windows. AS3 would be for things like sunroofs. If the windshield has a blue / green tinted shade band at the top there will be an AS2 mark with an arrow on it, indicating it is not part of the primary area (they were also used in production for workers to line up the shade band of the laminated inner vinyl layer). The color was dyed into the vinyl not the glass.




This was made at PPG works no. 80 (Hawkesbury, Ontario) in November 2005.



This was made at PPG works 28 (Evansville, Indiana) in March 2004.

These are both OEM windshields. There was really good money in ARG (automotive replacement glass). Back in my day, a COMPLETE car set of glass sold to Honda for about $100. For replacement glass, just the windshield alone we could get more than what we sold the car set for. Tooling for windshields was cheap - that is why all glass companies make it (and it is usually the one that gets chipped and broken the most). I can't think of anyone that made tempered back and side glass for the aftermarket. The tooling and process was much more complicated and expensive. A single OEM run would make 10 years worth of replacement tempered glass and you could not compete with that because of tooling costs if you were not the OEM.

Is there a difference between OEM glass and ARG. Hell yes.
For OEM glass we had drawings and data for bend and size from the automaker. For ARG glass we would go out buy a piece of glass from a replacement auto glass company (that was hopefully made by the OEM). We would make tooling by cloning everything off of that single piece of glass. Typical glass size tolerance was +/- 1.5mm. God knows where that sample glass was at. We would wait for complaints from glass shops before making changes.

Thing is, glass that did not meet automaker specs (for size and bend) often found their way into the ARG market. It was good from a safety perspective, just would be rejected by the auto maker. Robotic installation would be a problem if the size was out but not a big deal for a guy at an auto glass shop to fiddle with.

I guarantee that Chinese made replacement windshield glass is made the same way. For our 50 year old 914s my question is how bad is the photocopy, of a photocopy, of a photocopy, of a photocopy...

As a general rule, anyone can make replacement windshields. Side and back glass is generally always OEM.

Naturally I'm a bit anal when it comes to windshield glass since I know how it was made. Is ARG glass garbage? It really depends on the source. I bought mine from Porsche for a reason maybe it is a photocopy closer to the original document.

[scott_in_nh]

While my originality concerns don't extend to the windshield - I still find this all very interesting!
I have almost no history on my car, but knowing when the windshield was replaced would be another small piece to the puzzle.
As you can see the replacement is a PPG, but the markings are different then the ones above - can you @vitamin914 decipher it for me?
Thanks!

[TJB/914]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/w00t.gif)

This really opened up the 914 brain trust experts (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Here is a windshield photo taken July 2009 on a neighborhood 914-6. Info for our 914-6 guys.
Also wonder where this 914-6 ended up?? Anyone here?? I have old photo's to share.
Tom

[vitamin914]

While my originality concerns don't extend to the windshield - I still find this all very interesting!
I have almost no history on my car, but knowing when the windshield was replaced would be another small piece to the puzzle.
As you can see the replacement is a PPG, but the markings are different then the ones above - can you @vitamin914 decipher it for me?
Thanks!

@scott_in_nh

It has been 30+ years, so much has changed.

From what I can see it was made at PPG works 41 in Berea KY. It has a NAGS number on it (National Auto Glass Supply). NAGS is an industry organization that publishes a catalog for replacement glass for all makes and models. Glass shops use these to order glass from distributors. The NAGS number is is FW235 (FW means Foreign Windshield). This glass was made expressly for the replacement glass aftermarket. PPG was not an OEM for this part.

Since it is PPG not PGW, it means it was made before 2009 when PPG sold the auto glass division. The 0 means 2000 or 1990. It is not earlier because the PPG logo has a border next to the P and G (used to be right to the edge before 1987). I remember having to change a lot of silk screen artwork trademarks because of that pointless change...

It was made in the month of February. Solex is a light green tinted glass. The M 405 would have described that plus the thickness of the inner / outer glass layers and PVB middle layer... You could have different inner and outer glass thickness and or colors although the layers were generally the same type of glass - some Japanese cars used bronze colored glass instead of green. Our cars have clear or green tint glass. We had tables for M numbers to look them up.


Remember that trademark tells when the glass was made. It could have sat in a warehouse for a long time before being sold and installed into your car. It might not be that good for adding to the puzzle information.



1966-1987


1987-2016

[scott_in_nh]

Thanks! It makes sense that the year is 1990 as the PO said the car was repainted in the early 90’s before his ownership and I have reason to believe the windshield was replaced when the car was last painted.
To add a somewhat useful point for everyone – this windshield has been in the car for ~30 years and >40k miles and was installed using modern adhesives – not the Butyl tape!
Hope I didn’t just jinx myself lol!

Scott

[JeffBowlsby]

What I am seeing in many of the 914 images posted is that Kinon made the OEM AS1 windshield (not Sigla) and Sekurit made the side glass.

[wonkipop]

wow @vitamin914

interesting info download. thanks for that.
i'm not sure i should have flown off and dug up all that stuff on what a factory windscreen really was but it was so hot yesterday here there wasn't much else to do except put the feet up, crack a beer and stay inside. good for research.

at least mr. b ( @JeffBowlsby ) can enjoy the fruits - some more data for his classic website and closer to the "truth". whatever that is when it comes to 914s. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

good to have it explained what the M code is - relating to a table (list).
can understand that now.
must have been how the rego authorities here 30 years ago satisfied themselves i had a legit screen for australia. probably looked up the M code. gave them what they were looking for. light transmission percentages?

looks like the squiggle and the D-code is something that will remain a mystery but i guess everyone now knows its not any kind of manufacturer symbol.
probably a german code thing? maybe they had a table (list) to go with that.
whatever it is.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

on a side note @JeffBowlsby . i stumbled across a mention of kinonglas as being the supplier of the glazing in the famous FagusWerks building by Walter Gropius.
mr. kinon patented a particular kind of security glass with an early type of vinyl interlayer.
interesting innovator.

i couldn't find out much about sudglas which was the other manufacturer of what appeared to be a very similar windscreen fitted to some mercedes benzs but i think the scenario in the early 70s was that kinonglass as a factory and sudglas as a factory formed an association with sekurit and it was known as the sekurit-glas union gmbh.
gradually this then morphed into being known simply as sekurit. these days sekurit survives as a name by being the automotive glass division of st. gobain.
the renault i have has a windscreen branded with three names on it.

RENAULT
----------
SEKURIT
_______
St. Gobain

i believe that these days the remnants of kinonglas survives as Sekurit gmbh germany.

[wonkipop]

What I am seeing in many of the 914 images posted is that Kinon made the OEM AS1 windshield (not Sigla) and Sekurit made the side glass.

yes

the confusion may have arisen because 911s over in stuttgart made by reutter did have sigla windscreens. porsche had a different supplier than VW.

i did come across a photo of an english 930 turbo, an early turbo, that was claimed to have an original factory windscreen. it was an kinonglas screen just like the 914s.
so maybe porsche switched over from sigla in the 60s to kinonglas sometime in the 70s as well.

[JeffBowlsby]

Found this with a google search. I wonder what ABG approval means?

[wonkipop]

Found this with a google search. I wonder what ABG approval means?

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)
great minds think alike? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
i just found that one too.
i just had to try and find out what it was.

bless the new zealanders. must be something to do with being two islands full of car nuts who import stuff all the time.

translates as this.



i think what it is mr b is what the german had before the pan european standards were brought in that involve the E in a circle with a code system that goes with that.

i came across a german vintage VW blog and the version there said the herz symbol (the wave) means safety glass. so the D-XXX with a particular number is highly likely to be the german certificate that goes with that particular type of glass construction.
ie float/float. or float/toughened etc laminated. and for side windows etc the various types of toughened single sheet float.

pretty much the equal of the M code in the USA requirements which is the line above it on most of those german windscreens.

it all goes something like this.



i pulled my spare windscreen down but was not game to get the screen out of the box on my own. its all packed in there still with its proper foam edge protection. two person job to get it out and not risk damaging it. the marking was hidden by the foam protector pieces so i could not get a photo. the screen is dated from 92. i remember now i ordered it via hamiltons the distributor in australia shortly after returning from the USA.
it is a genuine screen. be interesting to see who the manufacturer is. nothing on the external box. only marked with porsche branding on the packaging.


EDIT
ps did you find that on the new zealand registration authority website like i did?

[JeffBowlsby]

I don’t recall, but I don’t think so. Maybe use a better image with the Kinon and DOT terms clearly depicted from a 914

[wonkipop]

@JeffBowlsby

found it.
jag nut website going into nutcase detail about triplex windscreens.
worse than us? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beer.gif)
it is the official german approval.
link explains the lot. cheese eating surrender monkeys, krauts, limeys, etc.
looks like the european union put an end to it.

https://forums.jag-lovers.com/t/triplex-log...p-needed/385846

interesting to see from that kiwi website how lame australia was.
just had a version of the british kite symbol.
i don't want to talk my own country down but such a colonial disappointment.
still is in many ways!

[JeffBowlsby]

I wonder if you can a few missing smdescriotions such as for the DOT 31, M# etc. also I’m pretty sure that the F in ‘Laminated F’ means tinted glass.

[wonkipop]

I wonder if you can a few missing smdescriotions such as for the DOT 31, M# etc.

you would need DOT documents from back in the early 70s.
i have managed to find some stuff before from EPA but.........

and as @vitamin914 says you need the industry code books for particular manufacturers to get the M number. god knows where you find those now.

AS1 is not hard. it just means America Windscreen Glass. must be used on windscreens.

i did look up the PET.

there is only 4 windscreens.
3 of them have the same part number. you got to look across for a bit more description.
the last 1 has a different part number. its for a heat protection glass screen.
so there is only going to be 4 of these M numbers. or am i wrong?
and the description line for the manufacturer will be different at the end after the brand name of the glass. the bit where it goes F/F and HI. these will be different letter.
and i suppose there are four D number certificates.



lesson is, for those thinking of just faking up a transfer to do the "originality" thing on their windscreen better be careful which "original" marking you copy.

and it looks like from year to year there is subtle shifts in the graphic re-arrangement of the markings.

a bit like the tune up sticker on a 1.8.
is that an EC-A or an EC-B mate. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

it would be fun to go along to a PCA concourse and mess with the judges minds? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)
its way tricky stuff this quest for originality.
not sure its a worthy endeavour.
better to just have a few original cars sitting around in museums and go for it with the rest of whats rolling. hot em up. whatever. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/driving.gif)

[wonkipop]

by the way i think the herz symbol is cute on the german glass certification.
i wouldn't mind betting it symbolises a heartbeat.
ie you live with this glass instead of dying?
just a thought.

i dunno, it was a much more imaginative world before it started to go all global.
the whole of europe is now just the stupid E with a circle.
but back then the national character of how you do things really came through?

the french one is really good. AGREE. followed by certificate number.

[wonkipop]

I don’t recall, but I don’t think so. Maybe use a better image with the Kinon and DOT terms clearly depicted from a 914

that is from my 914.
but you are right the reflection is bad.
i'll take another photo when the light isn't messing with me. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

i need to find out what HI means on the manufacturer line to do a final version.

also i have that 73 1,7 on file with the different letters in the manufacturer's description line.
i need to work out what they might mean. it appears to be a different type of screen construction entirely. says FIFA/F whatever that is.

and just to really mess with things that image posted above of a 914/6 screen is a whole different ball game compared to mine and the 73 i have on file.
but i reckon its dead set original and fairly interesting.

????? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif)

EDIT
laminated F definitely does not mean tinted.
i have a totally clear screen.
that was the big deal about getting registered in aus.
had to be clear.
laminated F is my screen on my car. so its not tinted.
everything i have come across that explains what various letters means says F = float.
i think in the case of my screen it means that neither of the glass laminations are toughened. its just plain laminated float glass. thats what i think.

the side glass probably has the clues. being single glazed that stuff will definitely be toughened. which is a T apparently.

i think tint is covered in the M codes. but you need access to those code books for each manufacturer.

[wonkipop]

@JeffBowlsby

i got my crack researcher on to it.
the chick who painstakingly cleaned the falcon ute interior with dishwashing liquid and toothbrush. she normally works at a top end indigenous art research institute at melbourne university.

she turned up the info that the D number, the ABG number as it is really known was issued by the Kraftfarht-Bundesarnt.



------

i might put her on to digging into DOT numbers.
it will cost me a case or two of ASAHI beer but it might be worth it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

her grandfather, father and uncle prepared the car that won the bathurst 500 in 1968 when she was still in nappies. 914s are her third favourite car after holden torana GTR-XU1s, and the citroen Karin concept car. so you never know what she might find.

[JeffBowlsby]

A couple of things I am curious about:

On the side windows, Delodur-1 is clear, Delodur-F is tinted. Most of the windshield bugs have that "F" designation and tinted windshields were made for the 914. Tinted 914 windshields are so lightly tinted the tint is almost imperceptible, maybe they found yours was acceptable, even though it was techncially tinted?

Does herz=hertz? I found a german spelling of it as 'herz' (named after Heinrich Hertz, German physicist), but have only known that term to be hertz. If so I suppose either is correct. That hertz symbol was linked to the ABG number in that explanatory 'key' image that we both found so it is part of the desgination of that "D"-number.

The PET page posted indicates 4 windshields. One windshield was made for the /6..why was that necessary? One was for heat protection, could that be the HI designation?

One of the images indicates "Plate". Would that be the non-laminated glass (Non-US markets only)?

Also, have not heard of 'toughened' glass before. Laminated, tempered, annealed, float (plate). Am I correct in understanding that 'toughend' must be tempered and the term is used in some parts of the world? A windshield (at least here in the USA, and Canada) should be tempered over tempered and laminated with the plastic interlayer.

On the M numbers I thought they were model numbers for each specific part as determined by each manufcturer. So not just 4 M numbers total, but one or more for each manufacturer that makes a 914 windshield or its variants.

Then there is this one from a 1972 currently on BaT (closes this morning). It appears to be originally a german market car from one of the stickers. It says Laminated Plate which I think is correct for the german market at the time. How it came to the US with that windshield is questionable.

[wonkipop]

@JeffBowlsby

re tough v tempered. down here we refer to it as toughened glass.
same thing. heat treated for strength.

you are right about the side glazing. if it has got the F. might have to look further into that. the jag website i linked to above lists all the letters used. states F is for float glass.
that info might be wrong. the glass in my car is Delodur1 in the side windows and rear window so i had not picked up on that F being there. further investigation required. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

the windscreen from the car on BAT is a USA rated windscreen.
nothing mysterious there. its got the AS1 rating marked on it.
its also laminated as it should be. see at the top. of the marking

the plate glass descriptor is interesting.
there will be an explanation for that.
could be as simple as the germans changed the term but where referring to the same thing. ie sheet glass/plate glass/float glass. you can get yourself into tricky territory with the old plate glass versus float glass discussion. anyway its a lam screen.
its very similar to the 73 screen i posted on first page of this thread.
similar but not exactly the same.
need more info/data.

the PET i referred to showed a distinct windscreen for both the 914/6 and the 914 2.0 together rather than just the 6. still - as you say, what was that about. yet it has the same part number as the one for standard 4s. dunno.
more data needed.

re M numbers. they would be different for each manufacturer.
but they might be describing the same thing. ie same construction.
anyways, i'm only going to poke my head into kinonglas. as far as i can tell that is the one that the factory was installing. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

i am not sure about the tempered over tempered for a windscreen in the USA.
or as we would say, toughened over toughened.
i know a lot about glass in architectural applications.
normally we cannot get laminated toughened. its laminated float.
we can only get toughened as single sheet.
now that may be a limitation of architectural glass and codes as they relate to regulation rather than a manufacturing limitation.
further research required.
however, that screen you have posted from BAT is USA so its a moot point.
AS1 on the DOT and M line means its a USA approved screen or USA standard screen.

herz means heart.
a couple of ways you could see that wavy line.
a sine wave. hertz.
a heartbeat herz.
who knows exactly why the germans chose that symbol.
they just did.
the French as i found out use the word AGREE instead of a symbol. which means APPROVED.

some more work to do.
the F thing is interesting. you may be right.
have to investigate further.
i'll look into DELODUR and see what that is about.

i guess its a bit like the ECA/B research.
you have to acquire enough examples to get to the bottom of it.
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)