914 Windshield inside OEM Glass Sticker logo?, Anyone making these OEM Windshield Mfg. Stickers Options

[dgw]

I think this thread is hilarious. I like to read the BAT auctions for 356's. Those guys are anal but entertaining. You guys are having fun with glass and interesting and entertaining. One can always learn something new about Porsches from threads like this.

[wonkipop]

I think this thread is hilarious. I like to read the BAT auctions for 356's. Those guys are anal but entertaining. You guys are having fun with glass and interesting and entertaining. One can always learn something new about Porsches from threads like this.

yeah (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)
we are just having fun.
i go nowhere near concourses and all that.
in fact i got a pm from @TJB/914 this morning, the guy who started this thread, delighted with our meanderings. he started all this with a perfectly reasonable question,
he wanted to reproduce a sticker for his windscreen and restoration. and of course, there is no right answer. but he is enjoying the info. if it helps him make a repro sticker well its a good thing. isn't it. we are just all out to have fun preserving and restoring cars - or as the case may be totally modifying them into monsters. all good (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

and sh#t i've just learned heaps from @vitamin914 about glass and windscreens i can take into everyday up to the minute purchases of screens for my other cars which are still newish and contemporary. fricken pricelss. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

but @JeffBowlsby in his meticulous and careful way asked a few pages back the right question, linking DOT 31 to a manufacturer. can it be done.
well i've looked and looked and i can't reach far enough back in time to do that.
its just not there in the digital files of the Dept. of Transport USA.
but i can find a current list.
and i just cracked something with it that Jeff wants to know.

so DOT 31 is unfindable.

but DOT 25 still exists.

and i notice its on all the SIGLA screens.
but i wasn't looking hard enough at the side windows. pardon my lack of observation Jeff.
they are also DOT 25.

that means same manufacturer.
DOT 25 is flachglas Automotive GMBH germany.
still exists.
company website shows history.
they made the SIGLA windscreens. company history says so along with DOT number.
but obviously they also made the DELODUR side windows.
so the writing on those makes sense now.
DELODUR is made by flachglass (makers of SIGLA brand windscreens) and the DELODUR is a process or toughening technique patented by SEKURIT. in this case licensed from SEKURIT. so the LIZ. SEKURIT is clear in its meaning now.

so you have sigla windscreen and DELODUR side glass you have a car where all the glass came from Flachglass. SIGLA screens fitted to 914s makes perfect sense.

you have a Kristall screen made by Kinonglas - is a combination of glass from two companies. the windscreen from Kinonglas, side glass from flachglas.
at some point Kinonglas was sold to ST. GOBAIN/SEKURIT and disappeared from existence.
after 914 production finished. DOT 31 disappeared with it from the records.
probably if you looked around in a physical archive in DOT you might find an ancient list.
but who cares.

here is the current DOT list you can dig up.




and here is a bonus for @JeffBowlsby .
came up randomly in one of my searches.
stuff that comes up i have no idea how it appears or how to back track it into some bigger DOT archived.
but its actually correspondence between SEKURIT and the DOT with an inquiry about just what they have to print on the windscreens and it dates from 1973.
more precisely the company is SEKURIT GLAS UNION GMBH.
its very clear too its referring to Kinonglas Kristall.
so in some way Kinonglas is hooked up to SEKURIT at that point in some kind of association or sub company.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[vitamin914]

I think this thread is hilarious. I like to read the BAT auctions for 356's. Those guys are anal but entertaining. You guys are having fun with glass and interesting and entertaining. One can always learn something new about Porsches from threads like this.

Absolutely fun. That is exactly why we are all here on this forum with our lovely (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wub.gif) little 914s on the driveway (or on jack stands) !!!

Poo poo to the naysayers...


@wonkipop

I looked at my 914s last night... Some interesting observations.

The 74 that has the Sigla w/s has DOT 25 (DELODUR) tempered glass all around. I think it is safe to say all 914s have this supplier (DOT 25) for all tempered parts. Then there are variations DELODUR -1 / - F / -1F. Not sure if we will ever figure that out.
What we should be doing is looking at the M number. That is recorded somewhere. Either at the manufacturer (for sure), but I would think they had to be submitted to the DOT, or the NHTSA for safety compliance. Question is, who could be asked to dig up 50+ year old records...? I'm sure they must still exist in a filing cabinet somewhere...

The 74 has M173 (-F) on the sides. This is the tinted glass EXCEPT for the left side large door glass, it has M202 (-1F). To me that means it has been replaced somewhere in time. M202 would be a different piece of glass - likely either the tint composition / raw glass supplier or the thickness. The back window is M93 (clear glass).

On the 73, the tempered glass is M93 all around meaning it is all clear glass.

So the takeaway for me is you could order heat protection glass for the windshield, side glass (M173 or M202 for tint and M93 for clear) or a combination, but the back glass was always clear M93 (M930 with a heating grid).

[StarBear]

I think this thread is hilarious. I like to read the BAT auctions for 356's. Those guys are anal but entertaining. You guys are having fun with glass and interesting and entertaining. One can always learn something new about Porsches from threads like this.

Indeed. As we say “ mostly harmless”, though my wife adds “amusing” as she rolls her eyes….. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[StarBear]

@StarBear

Is this what the trademark looks like that you have? I managed to get a readable shadow on a piece of paper.



I too have a Sigla w/s in my 74. It may be original - I have no way of telling. I do have the certificate for it that says tinted side glass. That really doesn't make sense to me that you could order only side glass that was heat absorbing? To me it should be all windows or none.

@wonkipop

It may well be that Sigla glass was installed at the factory too. I will have a look see... Maybe I can tell if any of the glass has a green tinge.

@wonkipop
Yes, those are the same sub-markings as on mine:
SGG
-AS1
Exact match, though mine is fainter and doesn’t show up when backing paper used. Might try a colored (red?) piece of paper.

[L-Jet914]

@wonkipop Unfortunately my windshield was replaced many years ago. All my other glass is orginal though.

[wonkipop]

some more trivia you don't have to read (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beer.gif)

SEKURIT.

patented process for making toughened glass.
process developed by Saint Gobain and licensed out to other glass works.

in the case of 914s St. Gobain licensed SEKURIT process to Flachglas GMBH who branded the product as Delodur.

Later on Saint Gobain morph the name SEKURIT into a brand that covers their automotive glass division.




re SIGLA screens also made by Flachglass.

S = sheet glass. thats the clear version. two layers of normal uncoloured sheet glass, virtually clear glass.

SGG = sheet green green. ie two layers of green coloured sheet glass. thats the "tinted" version.

the SGG is the one all the early 911 guys want because its the very greenish windscreen they covet.

seems to indicate that Flachglas was making their screens from plate glass stock (aka sheet glass).
whereas Kinonglas were making theirs from float glass stock (at least from 74 on).
the more modern way to make a flat piece of glass. earlier kinonglas windscreens use the S abbreviation like sigla do. later (approx 74 on) ones use the F.

i won't be digging into earlier than 74.
only interested in 74 1.8s.
anyone else wants to know what goes in earlier cars can do their own searching if they care about getting into windscreen fetishes.
but i did discover the early 911 guys are getting vintage screens re made by pilkington who now own the SIGLA trademark (brand), Pilkington will make you a replacement reproduction screen. you got to put your money down, all of it prepaid, with no return or order cancellation, wait three months and you get one. don't ask how much, you don't want to know. but if you think vintage tyres are expensive. mere pennies. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beer.gif)

[wonkipop]

I think this thread is hilarious. I like to read the BAT auctions for 356's. Those guys are anal but entertaining. You guys are having fun with glass and interesting and entertaining. One can always learn something new about Porsches from threads like this.

Absolutely fun. That is exactly why we are all here on this forum with our lovely (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wub.gif) little 914s on the driveway (or on jack stands) !!!

Poo poo to the naysayers...


@wonkipop

I looked at my 914s last night... Some interesting observations.

The 74 that has the Sigla w/s has DOT 25 (DELODUR) tempered glass all around. I think it is safe to say all 914s have this supplier (DOT 25) for all tempered parts. Then there are variations DELODUR -1 / - F / -1F. Not sure if we will ever figure that out.
What we should be doing is looking at the M number. That is recorded somewhere. Either at the manufacturer (for sure), but I would think they had to be submitted to the DOT, or the NHTSA for safety compliance. Question is, who could be asked to dig up 50+ year old records...? I'm sure they must still exist in a filing cabinet somewhere...

The 74 has M173 (-F) on the sides. This is the tinted glass EXCEPT for the left side large door glass, it has M202 (-1F). To me that means it has been replaced somewhere in time. M202 would be a different piece of glass - likely either the tint composition / raw glass supplier or the thickness. The back window is M93 (clear glass).

On the 73, the tempered glass is M93 all around meaning it is all clear glass.

So the takeaway for me is you could order heat protection glass for the windshield, side glass (M173 or M202 for tint and M93 for clear) or a combination, but the back glass was always clear M93 (M930 with a heating grid).

you are dead right @vitamin914 .
DOT 25 - all that comes from flachglas gmbh.
they do all the toughened (tempered for Jeff) glass.
branded as delodur.

and also the sigla windscreen you have. DOT 25.
you have a full flachglas car mate. pure breed. it would be all original glass that one.

i've got the factory cross bred mongrel. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)
with the DOT 31 windscreen. kinonglas.
swallowed up and disappeared a long time ago into the Saint Gobain empire of world domination. that company must have no cheese eating surrender monkeys on the payroll.

EDIT
ps your one piece of 1F sideglass is the glass they started using in 76 for tinted instead of F. supercedes the F i think. so its had a broken window down the line and the replacement glass has probably come from porsche as the new part.

yes on the "tinted" windscreens too being properly described as heat protected.
the SIGLA looks like it did it with both laminations being a green glass. SGG
the KINONGLAS did it with only the outer lamination being IRA (infra red absorbing) glass. FIRA/F.
clear versions of the windscreen are notated with an S for Sigla and with F/F for Kinonglass. i have to get my F/F out in the sunlight to see the colour. think its a kind of bluish grey rather than ultra clear - so even the "clear" or standard kinonglass one is kind of darkened. but hey i am probably color blind.

[Van B]

Now does sekurit still make replacement glass? That’s the question!

[wonkipop]

a titbit at the end for the front badge conscious.

strange triangle mark on SIGLA windscreens,
looks like a british standards safety kite mark,
isn't.
its the porsche logo that porsche had imprinted on all factory installed glass.
never realised it until now. don't know if any other nerds here had ever picked up on this totally useless bit of information. its pretty unique to the glass. don't reckon i have seen this elsewhere on 911s.

its a stylised P inside the triangle.

from @Van B 's screen.



from a 70s 911 rear glass. there on that.
and its on all the SEKURIT side glass of 911s.



from a 70s 911 with a sudglas screen, not even made by same company as SIGLA.
completely disassociated manufacturer but a factory supplier for small numbers of 911s screens.
there it is.




everybody else who had their logos on their siglas.

VW



MERCEDES




------

the lucky bastards with the SIGLA screens have got 1% more porsche in their VW porsches than us guys who missed out and copped the VW branded kinonglas.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beer.gif)

[Van B]

Wonkipop. That logo is all over porsche parts. I laughed when I bought 991 control arms. They were made by TRW but each one had a conspicuous little grind mark… which was the aforementioned logo. So, thats the difference between an OE and TRW control arm… about one gram lol!

[wonkipop]

Now does sekurit still make replacement glass? That’s the question!

i've got a windscreen from 92 in a box thats genuine porsche.
but you will have to find out who makes that or made that then until i have someone help me get it out without breaking it.

will at least tell you who was making the screens 15 years later for spare parts.
dunno if you can still get side glass from porsche. probably NLA.

[wonkipop]

Wonkipop. That logo is all over porsche parts. I laughed when I bought 991 control arms. They were made by TRW but each one had a conspicuous little grind mark… which was the aforementioned logo. So, thats the difference between an OE and TRW control arm… about one gram lol!

right. i don't know enough about porsches. i have not spotted that logo anywhere else on the 914. (and don't own a 911) maybe its there engraved into things i just have not spotted on my car. most of the stuff i have pulled out like the little flywheel washer etc have been stamped VW.

just had a quick look through some of the more accessible bits of the stash.
pretty amazing how many parts don't have the P.
front tits. no P
front indicator buckets. no P
but an early steering wheel i have - i noticed it there. tiny.
would never have looked twice at it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)
i just went on their website here and i see its their big claim - any genuine part will be stamped with it. the tits and the indicator buckets are genuine in boxes from 30 years ago.

[JeffBowlsby]

How is Kinonglas pronounced (phonetically)?

Kai-non-glahs?
Kihn-on-glass?
Koi-non-glahs?
Keen-un-glass?

@sirandy

[SirAndy]

How is Kinonglas pronounced (phonetically)?

Kai-non-glahs?
Kihn-on-glass?
Koi-non-glahs?
Keen-un-glass?

@sirandy

@JeffBowlsby

Kee-non-klaas

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/bye1.gif)

[wonkipop]

Clear glass was standard and the rear glass was always only clear. Windshield tint and side glass tint were different M-code options. A given car might not have had both options.

@JeffBowlsby just looked through your option code list on your website mr. b

great list - despite your apologies for missing data.
https://bowlsby.net/914/Classic/OpEq.htm


4 windscreen and side glass option codes.
might explain SIGLA screen v k-klass screens?
but can't link up specifics to the M codes.
def enough option listings to explain existence of both sigla and k-glass in 914s from factory.
maybe not random supply chain stock but rather deliberate option (and standard) selections?


M089 tinted glass.

noted as standard on 71 914/6 and 73/74 2.0 (some gaps in data for years as you note).


M568. green tinted side glass.

this 5 series number is listed on your 400 series group. is it a typo and its 468?
you have an X marked in the table for 74 2.0 and 1.8 but no other years.
(not sure what you indicate by the X.)
curious description = green.


M567. lam tinted windscreen.

optional for 71 914/6 and /4, 73-75 2.0 and 1.7/1.8. no data for some other years.
but 73 and 75 seem to get same.


M568 lam tinted side glass.

available as per M567.
reference to lam tinted probably incorrect? likely toughened?
normally you cannot expose the edge of laminated glass, the interlayer will fail.
makes no sense as practical application - also we have not come across any?
just option F code toughened side glass (delodur).


thinking SIGLA screen might be the M089 option?
appears early in the option number codes and was around in 911s of that exact time.
its the green screen 911 guys want these days for their restorations.

maybe why you get these sigla screens appearing alongside k-glass in the 74 cars we have looked at. if your table is right, 74 2.0s had one of those "tinted" screens standard (sigla green?) and one was an option (k-glas infra red). or other way around.
and for 1.8s a clear screen was standard (either sigla clear or k-glass clear) and it looks like you could get either of 2 tinted screens as an option?

what i am seeing is that 74 2.0s all had a tinted screen in our small selection of data.
one or the other (sigla or k-klass). but have not come across a clear.
found clear of either type in 1.8s and options for either type tinted in 1.8s.
have not gone into other years much except for 75 and 76 2.0s. but all are tinted screens i have found.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

[JeffBowlsby]

I reviewed that page too the other day and have the same issues/questions. That webpage was developed based on english language versions of printed Euro brochures by model year which included the optional equipment offerings for that year, price lists that used those same words on the webpage to describe the item and pricing.

The description wording is quirky and thet M568 item is listed 2x. Id est quod est.

I dont have the reference brochures anymore or cannot seem find them easily.

[wonkipop]

I reviewed that page too the other day and have the same issues/questions. That webpage was developed based on english language versions of printed Euro brochures by model year which included the optional equipment offerings for that year, price lists that used those same words on the webpage to describe the item and pricing.

The description wording is quirky and thet M568 item is listed 2x. Id est quod est.

I dont have the reference brochures anymore or cannot seem find them easily.

doesn't matter i think because its priceless information good enough to crack the PET page Jeff.



3 windscreens with same part # and only 2 for USA but specific about which models.

M 089 is the first one on your list. its got to be the 6s and the 2.0s got the green sigla screen (SGG) as standard. its not really tinted. we think of it as tinted but its just darker green glass.

the standard clear glass screen is not an option so never appears on M list.
is the second one on the PET list with the same part #.
could be either a sigla clear (S) or k-klass clear (F/F). standard on all smaller 4s.
agrees with PET description.

third one with same part number is toughened. we have never seen one.
never be on a USA car. (and if 914s had ever been sold in AUS, then AUS would have been on the exclusion list too). not sure what brand. you would have to sight one to ever find out.

fourth one with the different part # described specifically as heat absorbing glass is the IRA screens we are seeing. that is heat absorbing glass. by kinonglas.
be either IRA/S or IRA/F or FIRA/F depending on year.
thats the screen you could option up for any car in any year.
there is a 6 with one on this thread back at page 2 or so.


@TJB/914 asked a good question i think.
because if you were doing a resto you wanted to be accurate, you would never fit a "clear" screen to a 2.0 or a 6 if you were after accuracy. they never had them by the looks of things. probably if you are doing a 6 and you wanted to be right on the money (and they are worth enough these days) you would be doing the same thing as the 911 guys and going after one of those green sigla screens.
so if you are going to make a stencil and you can bothered going to all that trouble you may as well get it right rather than fake history and getting it completely wrong.

or just as legitimately, don't even worry about it and just keep improving the car.

PS to clarify what i mean by a "clear" screen.
what americans think of as tinted is not the same as the germans.
they did not really call it tinted in technical terms - like for the PET.
a green sigla screen is clear for the sake of PET but described as tinted in options.
a less coloured sigla or kinon is clear for the sake of PET also.

and a heat absorbing screen isn't really tinted either but its described that way in options list. they don't seem to use the technical terms for the showroom option descriptions.

hence you get confusion. and there appears to be two different so called tinted types.
but whats going on is that the 6s and 2.0s are getting those classic sigla green screens as standard equipment in my humble opinion. but the lower down the food chain small 4s are getting the "ungreen" screens as standard. and its being described in the PET that way. and if you ticked a box for tinted in the USA in those later years you likely got upscaled to the IRA screen.

[davep]

Clear glass was standard and the rear glass was always only clear. Windshield tint and side glass tint were different M-code options.

There has been some great work done here guys, many thanks.
To clear up the M options for tinted glass, there were only 2.
M567 for tinted windscreen
M568 for tinted windscreen and side glass
The clerks preparing the CoA/PPS have an incorrect crib sheet for M568 and you often see it as side glass only or tinted glass all around. The latter is the description for the 911/912 that does have a tinted rear window. As stated previously, the 914 rear glass did not have a tinted option.
M089 for windscreen in clear laminated glass (Windschutzscheibe in Verbundglas) not in conjunction with M567 or M568
Basically 3 windscreen options:
914 541 101 10 windscreen in clear laminated glass for all models North America & Sweden, available elsewhere as option M089
914 541 101 20 windscreen in tinted laminated glass for all models North America & Sweden, available as option M567 or part of option M568
914 541 105 10 windscreen in clear tempered glass for all models, except in North America & Sweden
Note there is a typo in the PET diagram where they have 101 instead of 105 for clear tempered glass.
Also, the options choices mean that to get tinted side glass it came in conjunction with a tinted windscreen, or you had to purchase as spare parts and install yourself.

[wonkipop]

condensed version over in originality section.
just data without wandering/waffling.
incorporating and adhering to verdict from dave p.

but we had to wander to get back on the narrow path? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/pray.gif)

http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=363328