OMG WTF, if it's not one thing it's another Options

[Type 47]

so we've been battling a tuning issue which is being discussed in another thread, so I don't want to muddy the waters with another issue, hence the new post.

So, i'm sneaking up on this carb tuning issue and get the car idling to do the carb tune stuff and I notice this shxt...

I get the car started, rev it to 2-3K for a little bit until it establishes idle at about 1,200.

so I get out to start fooling with the carbs and notice it's not smoking with white smoke like it was the last time. Outside temp was about 50, now outside temp is 64ish.

It's freak'n spitting out oil. There is a spray pattern out the tailpipe about 12' long.

When we filled the oil I instructed 4 qts but not sure if son put in the whole 5 qt Mobil One container in. Also, on initial run he thought it was a little low, on oil, so we put in another 1/2 qt.

Engine has been sticking a (measuring) really high ever since.

Has a piston ring gone south??

Is the oil overfill causing this issue?

Why did this just start happening?

[nditiz1]

When you say "He thought it was a little low" is it or isn't it? There are clear marks of low and full. You can go out and check it right now and know if it is over filled.

[Van B]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif) I doubt it’s low on oil… But you can always check the oil to be sure.

[mihai914]

Why don't you start all over with the car just like if you bought a project sitting in a barn?

IE, change oil, spark plugs, adjust valves, check timing, etc. etc. and fine tune the carbs

I'm not a carb guy, but I think adjusting them comes after some other basic conditions have been gone through on the engine.

[VaccaRabite]

Put the car level somewhere. Check the oil. If its high, drain out a quart. Check again.

Yes, too much oil can cause minor problems, such as what you are seeing. Its not an indication of bad rings. Its just too much oil. You have to REALLY overfill before you cause major problems.

Take a breath and let it out. This one is pretty minor and it happens.

Zach

[Type 47]

so we've been battling a tuning issue which is being discussed in another thread, so I don't want to muddy the waters with another issue, hence the new post.

So, i'm sneaking up on this carb tuning issue and get the car idling to do the carb tune stuff and I notice this shxt...

I get the car started, rev it to 2-3K for a little bit until it establishes idle at about 1,200.

so I get out to start fooling with the carbs and notice it's not smoking with white smoke like it was the last time. Outside temp was about 50, now outside temp is 64ish.

It's freak'n spitting out oil. There is a spray pattern out the tailpipe about 12' long.

When we filled the oil I instructed 4 qts but not sure if son put in the whole 5 qt Mobil One container in. Also, on initial run he thought it was a little low, on oil, so we put in another 1/2 qt.

Engine has been sticking a (measuring) really high ever since.

Has a piston ring gone south??

Is the oil overfill causing this issue?

Why did this just start happening?

[Type 47]

Put the car level somewhere. Check the oil. If its high, drain out a quart. Check again.

Yes, too much oil can cause minor problems, such as what you are seeing. Its not an indication of bad rings. Its just too much oil. You have to REALLY overfill before you cause major problems.

Take a breath and let it out. This one is pretty minor and it happens.

Zach

Thank You!!

We will get some drained out ASAP.

[Van B]

see if it smells like gas when you drain it.

[bossboy302]

Man, I feel your frustration. I've peeked at most of your recent threads. Your struggles seem to tumble down to the basics. SO, these suggestions are not meant to insult, but a bit of a reality check:

Maybe keep your son(s) in their own garages(s).
Get an experienced 914 tech to help.
Read and study a bit more before diving in.

or....Go to Fiji... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sunglasses.gif)

[Type 47]

Man, I feel your frustration. I've peeked at most of your recent threads. Your struggles seem to tumble down to the basics. SO, these suggestions are not meant to insult, but a bit of a reality check:

Maybe keep your son(s) in their own garages(s).
Get an experienced 914 tech to help.
Read and study a bit more before diving in.

or....Go to Fiji... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sunglasses.gif)

Fiji? Hmmm.

I did work on it some yesterday by myself.

Drained all the oil today and letting it drain overnight and then put some dino oil back in before doing anything else.

[Type 47]

We are back up and running. Not great but close to where we were.

I've learned that understanding carbs/Webers is much like becoming a Star Wars Jedi.

Yoda (all you guys) has led me to knowledge but like Luke I'm just wanting to get my Starfighter out of the swamp.

I did learn to check that the carbs do have the factory 32mm venturi's, 115 main jets, 2.00 correction jets, and the F11 emulsion tube. So they are stock, not modified.

We adjusted the floats to be 10mm's, which were a little off.

It seems like when you make an adjustment with the idle adjustment screws and even the air bypass screws it takes 20 seconds or so to see a difference. so I've learned to be patient.

but like Luke, I'm still shooting from the hip.

now I've got to not touch these and figure out what's keeping it from running more smoothly.

Timing?? The 27 degree mark is there at 3,500 rpm but is bouncing. and where should timing be at idle? We can see the mark off in the distance at idle.

I wish I had known how critical it is to make sure the marks are clear and marked before we put the engine back in.

[Superhawk996]

Good job - making progress.

So the 32mm venturis are on the big side to get good driveability and snappy throttle response. They will work . . . but here’s what you need to know. With that large of a Venturi throttle response is going to suck (did you catch that pun?). If you quickly blip open the throttle. It’s going to go lean and will stumble or possible random smidge of a backfire. As you seek to tune the idle don’t get distracted by blipping the throttle and seeking a perfectly smooth transition, ain’t gonna happen with 32s.

You should still be able to get to a smooth idle and a decent transition if you open the throttle smoothly and a little more slowly than just flipping between idle and wide open throttle.

There are a few tricks that can help ease the situation by trying to increase the quantity of fuel that the accelerator pumps release but that is more like the Jedi master class. Don’t get distracted by the quest for smooth seamless transition to fast throttle blips.

[Superhawk996]

How are you doing with the iteration between adjusting idle and balancing airflow (1st between barrels) and synchronizing between the two cylinder banks?

[Type 47]

Good job - making progress.

So the 32mm venturis are on the big side to get good driveability and snappy throttle response. They will work . . . but here’s what you need to know. With that large of a Venturi throttle response is going to suck (did you catch that pun?). If you quickly blip open the throttle. It’s going to go lean and will stumble or possible random smidge of a backfire. As you seek to tune the idle don’t get distracted by blipping the throttle and seeking a perfectly smooth transition, ain’t gonna happen with 32s.

You should still be able to get to a smooth idle and a decent transition if you open the throttle smoothly and a little more slowly than just flipping between idle and wide open throttle.

There are a few tricks that can help ease the situation by trying to increase the quantity of fuel that the accelerator pumps release but that is more like the Jedi master class. Don’t get distracted by the quest for smooth seamless transition to fast throttle blips.

yes I got it, and yes it sucks. everything you've said is exactly what's going on.

carbs are all snyc'd on all four corners, with that said I wish I had not cheaped on the snail gauge and got the pricey one.

[nditiz1]

You should be running 28 vents. Pick up a set, as Phil said 32s are way to big.

What are your idle jets? You should be running 50s. Also you should be around 2 - 3 full turns out on the mixture screws. After that you should be driving to get a feel for it and the jets.

Make sure all vac ports are blocked since you are running a 009. There might be one on the side of cylinder 4 carb barrel.

Since you are running 009 you will have off idle stumble. Most people mask that with larger jets or more timing. The correct way to handle that is with the correct Dizzy, most cost effective one pertronix SVDA ($160) eliminates points and fixes off idle stumble in one unit.

Also which snail did you get? It should be a German one around $45

[technicalninja]

I am Jedi-master class when it comes to ITB carb set up.

I briefly toyed with the idea of getting a set of 2bl down draft carbs as an interim step before modifying them to run true port FI with ITBs

SupeHawk advised to run much smaller carbs than I prefer (my experience is mostly DCOE and Mikuni PHH side drafts). I disagreed with him.

A serious dive into multiple IDF threads proved to me that he was RIGHT!

The Weber IDF idle and transition circuits provide so much of your normal running feed that the venturi size really needs to be 75% of what a DCOE or PHH requires.

It was way too much intentional intake pumping loss for me and I will start with aftermarket FI and not try and modify a carb body to make it work.
FI does not require ANY intentional intake restriction.

For 2.0l and smaller it looked like the 40s with a 28 venturi was the least problematic for many, many folks.

40s with 32s needs a 2.2l or larger engine.

It also looked like Dellortos might be a better choice, but I have little experience with Dells and decided I didn't need the exposure.

I will build something 2.2L or larger and for ITBs I need throttle blades 44+ with FI.
This would have made the part throttle BS even worse.
My current thoughts are a single DBW t-body of 60-65mm and a custom plenum.

For a mild 2.0L with IDFs I'd now suggest a venturi of 28 with corresponding main and air correction jets. Probably closing on $200 in cost.

With aftermarket FI I will have every single jet, emulsion tube, accelerator pump cam/nozzle, anything you can imagine, built into my ECU and available with a few strokes of a lightsaber that looks very similar to my index finger.

So, a Jedi-master decided "These are NOT the carbs you are looking for" and walked away...

[Type 47]

You should be running 28 vents. Pick up a set, as Phil said 32s are way to big.

What are your idle jets? You should be running 50s. Also you should be around 2 - 3 full turns out on the mixture screws. After that you should be driving to get a feel for it and the jets.

Make sure all vac ports are blocked since you are running a 009. There might be one on the side of cylinder 4 carb barrel.

Since you are running 009 you will have off idle stumble. Most people mask that with larger jets or more timing. The correct way to handle that is with the correct Dizzy, most cost effective one pertronix SVDA ($160) eliminates points and fixes off idle stumble in one unit.

Also which snail did you get? It should be a German one around $45

the gauge is a Kuhlek Moterwerks I got from amazon

I will check the jets tomorrow.

[Type 47]

I am Jedi-master class when it comes to ITB carb set up.

I briefly toyed with the idea of getting a set of 2bl down draft carbs as an interim step before modifying them to run true port FI with ITBs

SupeHawk advised to run much smaller carbs than I prefer (my experience is mostly DCOE and Mikuni PHH side drafts). I disagreed with him.

A serious dive into multiple IDF threads proved to me that he was RIGHT!

The Weber IDF idle and transition circuits provide so much of your normal running feed that the venturi size really needs to be 75% of what a DCOE or PHH requires.

It was way too much intentional intake pumping loss for me and I will start with aftermarket FI and not try and modify a carb body to make it work.
FI does not require ANY intentional intake restriction.

For 2.0l and smaller it looked like the 40s with a 28 venturi was the least problematic for many, many folks.

40s with 32s needs a 2.2l or larger engine.

It also looked like Dellortos might be a better choice, but I have little experience with Dells and decided I didn't need the exposure.

I will build something 2.2L or larger and for ITBs I need throttle blades 44+ with FI.
This would have made the part throttle BS even worse.
My current thoughts are a single DBW t-body of 60-65mm and a custom plenum.

For a mild 2.0L with IDFs I'd now suggest a venturi of 28 with corresponding main and air correction jets. Probably closing on $200 in cost.

With aftermarket FI I will have every single jet, emulsion tube, accelerator pump cam/nozzle, anything you can imagine, built into my ECU and available with a few strokes of a lightsaber that looks very similar to my index finger.

So, a Jedi-master decided "These are NOT the carbs you are looking for" and walked away...

but Master...these are the carbs I have.

so be it. I will make these work, I will.

“Once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny. Consume you, it will.”

[technicalninja]

Yep, if I was in your shoes, I'd work with those.

I'd get the 28s and tune them.

I'd start by base lining the car and hitting the tune up stuff exactly right.

Valve adjustment prefect.

I'd bit the bullet and get one of those 123 distributors (get the one that you can modify with your phone).

This dist set up seems to solve so much crap that plagues the 914.

Its only drawback seems to be price. Everyone who has one loves it.

I'd have hot compression and hot leak down numbers. They would have to be in the good range before I went further, Comp with 10% of each other. Leak down similar and below 20% on a used engine. Below 10% is better but I wouldn't rebuild unless I had seriously bad numbers. Both of these tests have to be done HOT and the process of the test cools the engine, so I'd do them separately with a driving period between them.

Adjust the valves BEFORE you do the comp test. Intake valve closure point varies compression more than any other reason.

I'd install a wide band O2 sensor to allow me to actually see what is really going on at different load points while driving. I have serious experience in reading plugs, tail pipe, and all the crap we used to do before WB. The WB is a requirement in my process now. It gives an accurate scientific readings on your jet set up.

And then I'd log AFRs and start swapping jets to correct any poor spots.

With a wideband I'd buy 75% fewer jets than without the WB.

My 75 came with the hated single progressive in the center. I'm installing a wideband as the first thing I do to this car, and I'm interested in how well this set-up works.
I don't think I'll waste any money on these as I will be first moving back to stock L-jet on this car. Progressive to stock J-jet 1.8 to 2.2l+ with digital aftermarket is the path I will travel.

If I already had your carbs, I'd work with them. nditiz1 has serious direct experience with them and I'd be bugging him a bunch.
He has stronger "force" with these than I do.

[VaccaRabite]

It only takes about 10 minutes to swap the vents out for 28s. And the car will behave a lot better with them. Its worth the time and money to buy and then tune for them!

Zach