Four vs Six, comparison questions Options

[Joe Bob]

QUOTE (URY914 @ Aug 18 2005, 09:18 AM)

QUOTE (Jake Raby @ Aug 18 2005, 09:09 AM) The camshaft weighs 18 ounces and its hollow  ;) (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/happy11.gif) I've thought of drilling out some of my bolts to save some weight. Not stressed bolts are very heavy. P

Just curious...when does the lightness quest go from a hobby to a deadly obsession???? (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/cool_shades.gif)

Why do I picture Gollum and a scream of "My Precious!!!!!! (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/w00t.gif) "

[Crazyhippy]

Start looking at airplanes, they have some really trick lightweight fasteners and ideas.

Gliders especially, Liteweight is god in a glider (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/drunk.gif)

[URY914]

Colin Chapman would start out with a lightweight part and when it broke he'd beef it up. If it didn't break, he figured it was too heavy in the first place. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/wink.gif)

But we're getting OT..

P

[Crazyhippy]

(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/hijacked.gif)

That's how Ducati does it too. The idea is to get EVERYTHING to break at the same time (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/sad.gif) (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/rolleyes.gif) (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/happy11.gif)

Some of the guys i've run Dirt Ovals with have gotten caught running thin wall tubing in certain spots on their chassis (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/screwy.gif) The weird thing is there is a minimum weight and they are having to add the weight back elsewhere. they just get to pick where the weight goes so that it helps transfer power as opposed to hurt traction.

They have also been caught running traction control (very illegal) that uses the ring gear teeth as a measurement (spooled rear-end) The traction control wont let the car accelerate faster than is realistic, so it cuts down the wheelspin (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/spank.gif) (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/spank.gif)

IMCA modifieds, 1800lbs, 600+ HP (naturally aspirated on alcohol) 9" wide tires racing 3 wide sideways in the mud (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/w00t.gif) (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/driving.gif)

[Trekkor]

Jake, I know you have a tremendous passion for the Type IV and enjoy building them. That's awesome. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/clap.gif)

It just seems, to me, that you have a hate and rage against the Porsche motors in general for some reason. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/confused24.gif)

You say T4 or V8. But you also say any motor with a radiator is trash, and you'll never drive one.

I remember the comment you made about all the V8 vintage racers all piled up? ( "No real loss, they all had radiators" )

A lot of your comments are leaning toward beating, passing, humiliating a SIX equipped car on the track or street. Why is this?

You could build up R&D on the flat air cooled SIX and gain a HUGE client base.
Why don't you build SIXES?

Don't take this as a personal attack. I just don't understand you. Sorry if I offend...


KT

[goose2]

QUOTE

You could build up R&D on the flat air cooled SIX and gain a HUGE client base.

Jake, As a relative newcomer here and since I've never met or even spoken to you, it's hard to judge, but Trekkor's post rings true. Is there a reason you basicly dislike the sixes? Don't get me wrong, I'm not putting you down....I admire your accomplishments and dedication. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/smilie_pokal.gif) Anyone who can do what you are doing with t4's denfinitely has my attention. I'd love to see what you could accomplish with your talent and passion applied to Porsche sixes!

[ArtechnikA]

i don't claim to speak for Jake, and i don't quite know why he spends so much time dissing the other platforms (other than it's a character flaw, but God knows we all have those...) but it seems clear to me that it's an area of specialisation.

there are lots of guys building killer 6's. there's been 40 years of 6-cylinder race development. Jerry Woods, Steve Winer, Peter Dawe come to mind instantly. give me a few minutes to research and i can come up with another dozen names of respected 911 builders.

Jake is a big fish in a small pond. you want a HiPo T-IV, he's the go-to guy, no question.

donno why he'd want to give up that status to be another entry on the list of competent 6-cylinder builders, although if you've followed his posts, you'll have learned that he does them, and not infrequently.

also, as he's pointed out - the engines are *different.* the elements (i hesitate to call them "secrets") he's learned about how piston speed, swept volume, cam profile, compression, and a dozen factors all interplay in the T-IV to a level no one else can duplicate. not much of that knowledge translates to a 911 engine - which has its own "secrets" the guys who do those on an everyday basis understand intimitely.

comes down to one of the contenders for "best advice" (from a long-ago series of beer commercials...): "put all your eggs in one basket - and Watch That Basket!"

[nebreitling]

A hot four makes a great street/AX engine. good torque, decent reliability in the lower displacements even without $3k cylinders, easy enough to teardown and build yourself, and a well-balanced platform.

given that i have about $3k in my 2056 (substatially less $$ if you consider the old parts i sold off, a little more $$ if you consider the parts i already had) and it makes quite decent power on pump gas with a 9.65:1 comp ratio -- i'm a little mystified as to where another $7k would go. another $7k for 50 more hp? give me a friggin break.

i have never ever ever seen or heard of a /4 with 100k+ miles on it survive constant flogging on a big track -- and there are hundreds of sixes in the bay area alone which do just that every single week (minus the 996/986 oil starved engines which tend to go 'poof').

[Jake Raby]

I do build sixes, just don't brag about them- i do them ONLY for the money... Generally that "Money" goes right into TIV R&D so its all good-

I like to do more with less as a general rule and that means making the underdog shine- the satisfaction goes much further for me.

Understanding the TIV engine means ONLY understanding it and not really paying attention to anything else.... Thats how I've gotten where I have with 4 cylinder development.

I'm a certain kind of Renegade that likes to do things his way and not follow others. When i started this shop I looked at every aircooled engine in the world and decided that my focus was going to be with the TIV. I could have chosen everything from Harleys to the Porsche 6 or even Race Go Kart engines (I buiuld a few of those too and they are $$$ and had a great deal of experience with all sorts of aircooled engines) but after a close review I decided to go with the "Bastard" that was often misunderstodd but that I had always had a passion for and certain understanding of that others had to work to attain.

So thats why I chose the TIV- I hate damn experts and there were already too many of those in the TI, six cylinder and Harley world- I decided to make my own tracks and not step in someone elses and I am very proud that I did.

I do not have a hatred againt the Six- The owners of them pay me very well! I just simply don't think its what everyone makes it out to be... It has too many internal parts and has a heritage that i just don't see from a mechanical standpoint- thats just me... Like i said earlier I like to do more with less and would anyday choose to build a super modified TIV over a 911. The 911 is "thought" to be big and bad already -the TIV isn't so making one bad ass is so much more of a challenge and makes me feel like I'm worth something....

Often people ask me what I'll do if the TIV engine dies out or fades away... I usually respond by saying I'll close my shop and since every damn thing is paid for I'll have a 10,000 Sq ft playground with a full machine shop to play in... Then I'll go work on Turbines and consider that my first "Job" since I was an apprentice in an Auto shop at age 13.......

As for the Sixes- Go have fun with them!

I understand the TIV and have a very intimate relationship with it- I believe in monogamy so I'll keep what I have and let those experts do their thing while I do mine-

See ya

Hey BTW- Here is a challenge for ya... Start a TIV Vs Six thread and ban my name from being mentioned and see how the thread progresses- I think it would be interesting.

[goose2]

good answer Jake....I think I get it

[Matt Monson]

QUOTE (Crazyhippy @ Aug 18 2005, 09:39 AM)

Start looking at airplanes, they have some really trick lightweight fasteners and ideas.

(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/hijacked.gif)
I have a friend who pursued this. I guess all the hardware on commercial airliners is Ti. And they replace everything within a certain lifecycle and pretty much just trash the hardware. Knowing a guy that worked at the airport, he got a couple of buckets of bolts, nutz, washers, etc to retrofit to his car. Well he got them home only to find out they are SAE. The airline industry is like the last major industry in the universe not to convert to metric. All that Ti went in the trash. :end highjack:

[Katmanken]

There is just something fun about kicking somebody's butt with a small engine.

They don't expect it, they can't believe it, and they really get pissed when they find out whatcha got.

As a young punk into the VW scene, I had a hot Karmann Ghia convertible that was the terror of Melbourne Florida and the beach. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/driving.gif)

Nobody could keep up with it, and it was especially satisfying when I gained on a brand new 911 up to 65. He decided to show me what it was about and dived into the twisty section of the road. He couldn't believe it when I kept gaining on him. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/blink.gif)

Last I saw him he was winding it out above 65 headed for the 15mph school zone. I slowed down for the kids. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/happy11.gif)

Helped some of my Buds built a chop top beetle with 176 hp at the rear wheels. We got 3rd in the autocross southeast nationals in Georgia. Thats third place after first place Harry Heimdahl and his ford GT 40 and the second place chebby v-8 in a tube frame. We felt great getting third with a lowly 4 banger. Didn't even need Harry's semi full of parts and complete machine shop to win. We just run what we brung. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/smilie_pokal.gif)

Jake is building an engine for somebody in Melbourne to fit into his Karmann Ghia convertible. The kid can have my old crown. I hadda lotta fun with that car. Hope the kid gets better than the 16-18 mpg I got. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif)

Ken

[IronHillRestorations]

QUOTE (Jake Raby @ Aug 18 2005, 12:54 PM)

I understand the TIV and have a very intimate relationship with it- I believe in monogamy so I'll keep what I have and let those experts do their thing while I do mine-

Amen Bro!

Specialization is a good thing, and that's why Jake is sucessful and opinionated. He knows what he's talking about and is good at what he does.

The 914 world is big enough for many different approaches. Nothings more boring than someone who agrees with you all the time!

Oh and I agree with you Jake, about that expert thing. Bruce Anderson told me along time ago to steer clear of anyone that calls themselves and expert, and he's right. Usually a big ego goes with the title.

Now what would be a fun challange is say, let's both build an engine of say 2.2 liters of displacement, and test them on the dyno and in the same car. It would be very interesting to me to see how the chips fall. Further interest would be to put them in daily drivers and see how they fair, long term. I'm not fishing for puffing up and "oh my engine's gonna kick this and blah, blah, that" I just think it would be cool to A/B compare, that's all.

[Jake Raby]

QUOTE

Jake is building an engine for somebody in Melbourne to fit into his Karmann Ghia convertible. The kid can have my old crown. I hadda lotta fun with that car. Hope the kid gets better than the 16-18 mpg I got

Yep- 2680cc... Daily Driver... She'll weight in at about 230N/A HP and around 225 on Torque.

[Katmanken]

Jake,

Better warn him about the dent he's going to have in his dash. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/ohmy.gif)

Seems the convertibles are a little flexy and when you rev them up and dump the clutch, the stickshift bounces off the dash. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/happy11.gif)

With an engine that size, he's probably going to need some longitudinal chassis stifffening. That engines a WHOLE lot larger than the T1 engine I usta run.

Ken

[IronHillRestorations]

QUOTE (9146986 @ Aug 18 2005, 02:40 PM)

Now what would be a fun challange is say, let's both build an engine of say 2.2 liters of displacement, and test them on the dyno and in the same car.

Just for clarification, I bring the six and Jake (of course) the four

[Jake Raby]

Bring it on. What are the rules of engagement?

[URY914]

QUOTE (Jake Raby @ Aug 19 2005, 10:07 AM)

Bring it on. What are the rules of engagement?

Jake can only run three cylinders. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/sad.gif)

[tat2dphreak]

QUOTE (Jake Raby @ Aug 19 2005, 01:07 PM)

Bring it on. What are the rules of engagement?

N/A, w/ carbs, between 2150 and 2300ccs other than that, there are no rules, I say... (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/wink.gif)

[Jake Raby]

I'd use a 2270

You guys do know that doing this scientifically will take a LOT of consideration time...

If I did it we'd data log 32 channels worth of stuff... BUT who's gonna pay for the dyno time?? I could care less what the results are or who sees them- Hell I can't keep up with what I have to do now!