Four vs Six, comparison questions Options

[URY914]

I believe you need to look the entire scope of the conversion which I think is over looked. Don't just compare engines, compare the work involved. You can do a Big-4 change out in a weekend by yourself. You better call some friends if you want a -6 in a weekend.

Look at it this way: Take a Big-4 to a shop and ask for a price to install it. Take a -6 to a shop and ask for a price. Do they still cost the same?

You also need to think about the other associated parts and pieces that go into the -6 upgrade for track use. -6=more weight=bigger brakes and five bolt wheels and an upgrade here and there and everywhere. $$$

But once again it all come back to what you're going to be doing with the car.

Paul

[andys]

A couple of years after buying a new '73 2.0L, I roomed with a guy that owned a '70 six. Both cars at the time were stock (His six actually had fewer miles), and both were black. I tried driving one, then hop into the other, and back again. Near as I can recall (some 30 years later), the six was by far the stronger car. I was always amazed at how much stronger the six ran, given they were both the same displacement. Seat of the pants side-by-side test. I would have prefered the six any way you cut it. FWIW.

Andy

[lapuwali]

QUOTE (john rogers @ Aug 16 2005, 09:19 AM)

As a strict cost comparison, the next time you are in San Diego you are welcome to stop buy and you can total up the reciepts for the four cylinder and for the six cylinder engines over the years. I am guessing that the four cost 3 times in maintenance over the same period of time that the six does? Besides, it is NOT the engine, it is the driver that wins the races!

John, you're talking about race engines, and I'm not. Jake has claimed that one of his engines will go 100K miles in "normal" use, which seems to mean street and some AX, with maybe a track day here and there. I have no reason to doubt this figure. This is an expensive ($8K) engine with Nickies and ceramic stuff in it. I have no doubt an iron-barrelled highly-stressed engine will have a much shorter lifespan, esp if road-raced. That a Six will hold together for 2-3x longer than a Four under racing conditions is good info, but not necessarily relevant unless the original question was only about track-only engines. Even if that's directly applicable to the street, if Jake's numbers are reasonable you'd see 200-300K miles out of a Six in street use. For some Sixes (like the SC), I'd believe that number.

However, if I can spend $8K on engine A and get 100K miles, or $20K on engine B and get 300K miles, I'd still opt for engine A, since that 100K miles would likely last me 10-15 years in a 914. I'd be dead (or just too old to care) by the time engine B needed a rebuild.

[lapuwali]

QUOTE (redshift @ Aug 16 2005, 09:19 AM)

QUOTE (airsix @ Aug 16 2005, 12:37 PM) -Ben 'gimme unbiassed objective data'  M. There is a Birdite that will back up claims of sub 300k/m 3.0 motors still pulling cars around. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/rolleyes.gif) I won't mention names, because only the worst kind of troublemaker, would force Dxxx Dxxxxxxx to get into this conversation. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/unsure.gif) ooops... Given a budget of $10k, a /6 will get you a -bunch more performance- that you can count on being there... in 30k miles, when the HiPo/4 needs head work, to get the boom-boom back, and at 60k, when the HiPo/4 needs head work, to get the boom-boom back... and at 90k, when you are freshening the heads in the HiPo/4 to get the boom-boom back, that won't come back, because you need a new bottom end... A normally functioning 3.0/6 puts out more power than you can get out of a HiPo /4. It's unfair, really. We are talking about built motors, against stock here.. stock vs stock leans even more to the /6. It's ok to love something different than everyone else, remember before you blast me, I went out of my way, to buy a /4, when I could have had a /6 for about $10.00 more. I like the sound of a fresh /4, when it isn't grenading. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/smile.gif) My opinion has been paid for, many times over. And James, I think you are a little high on what a /6 costs, and apparently quite low on what a real performace /4 costs... 3.0/6, is a core + around 7500, vs about 3/4ths the HP from a $15k /4. M

I can drop a "HiPo" /4 directly into the engine bay with no more money than the cost of the engine. A 3.0SC would require a lot more money for a lot more parts to do the swap. KEP kit, engine mount, exhaust, oil tank, plumbing, etc. The number bandied about here often is $10K to do a Six swap "properly", at a minimum, and I KNOW rebuilding an SC properly would be $10K minimum. Hence, $15-20K.

I SAID you'd get more power out of the 3.0/6 than the $8K /4. At twice the price. 140hp v. 180hp, more or less. More power costs more money. No surprise there.

$8K for a 100Kmile, 140hp four are basically Jake's numbers. Argue with him if you think that's not so. I'm sure a 180hp four would be a lot more. More power costs more money...

[redshift]

James, again, you aren't even in the same ball park.

An $8k /4 won't get you anything like the preformance of a $10k /6.

As far as I can tell, it costs about $15k for a /4, that even approcaches the performance of the /6, and it won't last. (the performance)

So, around 200hp, that needs alot of service in 100k miles, to stay that way, or 200+ hp, that requires less service, and lasts in situ, 3x as long.

We need to make a points system, and itemize. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/smile.gif)

In your above post, DIY /4, vs pay somebody /6. Time is worth something.


M

[tat2dphreak]

ok here's my take...

if you have unlimited resources and max hp is your goal, then a /6 may be the smartest money... more reliable and gobs of power


if you have a more realistic budget and plans, then it's a sliding scale...

I think the higher your budget is, the more a /6 is feasible, if you are saying "what can I get for 6k? then you would want a /4... because at that $$ a 4 is all you can afford... I think at 8-10k it's almost a wash, because the conversion costs associated with a /6 + the engine will get you about the same hp as a 10k /4... (I really don't think the weight difference is NEARLY as much of a consideration unless it's a full-time racer, not a street car)

in other words, it's all about the dolla,dolla bills... the more you have, the more engine you can get.

now, what do I want? one of each... (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/smile.gif) a Raby 4 and a 3.2 six warmed up in my garage.

I have no idea what Jake's engines cost, but I'm sure they are worth every penny.

unfortunately, I don't see when I'll be able to afford that many pennies...

a Raby Kit is feasible and a good buy for the 6k range... try putting a /6 in a car for 6k... if you do, you are either lucky or did it a piss-poor way.

[redshift]

This is a big problem here, because when anyone says /4, the topic always goes to Jake, and it's UNFAIR to Jake. Jake isn't the designer of either engine, and has no control over physics.

It's not personal, and I think we all respect him for his overt enthusiasm, and his quest to wring out everything that he can.

Just an aside.

(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/smilie_pokal.gif) Jake.



M

[aircooledboy]

You guys are all thinkin too small. Let's see, 400 horses, $8k, hmmmm, how could that be done? (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/idea.gif)

[redshift]

hahahaha

You need a $12k transaxle.


M

[aircooledboy]

(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/laugh.gif) (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/w00t.gif)
I had to do it. This clusterfuch was developing much too slowly, and I just don't have much patience today. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/monkeydance.gif) (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/lol2.gif)

[redshift]

What works better in that one; tap water, or Perrier?

(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/wink.gif)


M

[JmuRiz]

I've got a solution, just buy a 911 to go along with your 914...there, you got a 6 and a 4 (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/wink.gif)

[aircooledboy]

QUOTE (redshift @ Aug 16 2005, 01:00 PM)

What works better in that one; tap water, or Perrier? (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/wink.gif) M

20 year old Jack Daniels, actually. Know where I could find any? (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/beerchug.gif)










Sorry John. I have shamelessly polluted your thread for my own enjoyment. I promise to try very hard to stop now. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/aktion035.gif)

[Jake Raby]

FYI- The cost between a 180HP/4 and a 140 HP/4 isn't but about 2K and thats the difference in head work primarily since 90% of the other components will handle 180HP just as well as 140.

Now, going over 180 HP RELIABLY almost dubles the cost of the 140HP engine because we have to use exotic materials to attain the goal and retain RELIABILITY AND LONGEVITY...

I have built many 911 engines in my time, but none newer than a 2.7..... I chose long ago to stick with the /4 because I totally understand the engine and all its parts- Of course I'm biased to a /4 engine because I love them.

I will say that a /4 thats not properly designed or well built is a nightmare waiting to happen- those nightmares keep my doors open because I repair those mistakes all the time.

[Matt Monson]

QUOTE (aircooledboy @ Aug 16 2005, 09:57 AM)

You guys are all thinkin too small. Let's see, 400 horses, $8k, hmmmm, how could that be done? (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/idea.gif)

Well if you are going to pull that genie out of the bottle, I can build and install a 400hp Subaru engine in my car for half that price!

But back on topic...
I am really glad to see this 4 vs 6 topic being discussed, as this is what I am currently going back and forth about. I fall into the portion of people here that want good solid power for the street with an occasional foray onto the track or auto-x on the weekends.

With those needs, I am not going to put $10k into either engine. I am comparing a mild big bore build out of the 2.0l 4 to a 2.4l E conversion. Obviously the 4 is going to be cheaper, but I am left wondering if it will be enough power for me. In my world it goes back to the horsepower per $$$ comparison coupled with the lifespan of the motor. These days I am leaning towards the 6. It will cost me $4-5000 more to convert and get running, but once it is done, I think I will be happier...

[Trekkor]

I've done the SIX conversion for around $4k including the motor.

What can you build for that?
I won't spend $10k to rebuild any SIX.
I'll just buy a used $4k 2.7 with a 90 day warranty from Parts Heaven...In 90 days, believe me, we'll know if it will last. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/smash.gif)

Can a 2.7 FOUR be built for $6500? Someone will tell me.

KT

[johnmhudson111]

QUOTE (redshift @ Aug 16 2005, 12:56 PM)

This is a big problem here, because when anyone says /4, the topic always goes to Jake, and it's UNFAIR to Jake. Jake isn't the designer of either engine, and has no control over physics. It's not personal, and I think we all respect him for his overt enthusiasm, and his quest to wring out everything that he can. Just an aside. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/smilie_pokal.gif) Jake. M

In my orginal post I put Jake's name in there because I think he is generally reguarded at the person that is making the biggest improvements with type 4 engines. I did NOT do it to put him on the spot or anything like that. That being said maybe we should look at this in another way.

What are the options for engines under 200hp and what are the options for over 200hp? Can a /4 equal the power of a six? I am pretty sure it can to a point, but what is that point? I just threw out 200hp but is there a limit?

Excluding turbo charging and all that V8 stuff. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif) Of course.

[Matt Monson]

Oh,
and one thing to add. I don't know what shops people are using for their 6 rebuilds, but those $10-15k number seem a bit high, unless you are talknig full blown race build. We have a rebuilt 1976 2.7S engine here for $6500, no core, and a rebuilt 3.0l for $9000. I am not trying to push product here, but just am wondering where those higher numbers are coming from???

[johnmhudson111]

QUOTE (aircooledboy @ Aug 16 2005, 01:14 PM)

QUOTE (redshift @ Aug 16 2005, 01:00 PM) What works better in that one; tap water, or Perrier? (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/wink.gif) M 20 year old Jack Daniels, actually. Know where I could find any? (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/beerchug.gif) Sorry John. I have shamelessly polluted your thread for my own enjoyment. I promise to try very hard to stop now. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/aktion035.gif)

I would prefer Grey Goose Vodka myself, let's just say I had a bad experience at my fraternity house with a bottle of Jack. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/barf.gif)

[redshift]

LA Dismantlers... (disclaimer) if you go over there, and see the motor you want, in the car, to verify milage, and...

You can get a 3.2 with real low miles for around $6.5k with all the goodies. Make sure it runs, because alot of the wrecks they get are a flat 911 shaped thing, with an engine lid, and internals can do bad things, on impact. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/wink.gif)


M