P-car 6 or SBC 8, for Ury Options

[Crazyhippy]

It's is roughly 10HP (not bad for 40cc's) and is faster than the tracks it's ridden on. this was taken at the cart track just south of Vegas (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/w00t.gif)

[ArtechnikA]

midsouthminimoto.com

aha.

it suddenly all falls into place...

[grantsfo]

QUOTE (Crazyhippy @ Aug 20 2005, 12:26 PM)

So no one needs anything beyond the stock brakes? I've experianced brake fade bad enough that i pulled off track with sticky tires and a carbed 1.7 (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/unsure.gif)  Must be the sticky rubber overwhelming the brakes, probably should go back to the factory pizza cutters (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/rolleyes.gif) There's a reason for Raby to be in buisness, ALOT of other people think the cars are underpowered.

Maybe a better question is how could you toast the brakes on a 1.7? I'm starting to understand why you need the v8!

..and remember Jake readily admits he doesnt have many 914 customers - the number of 4's greatly out numbers modified cars - most people recognize that a V8 in this car completely defeats the purpose of the car. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif) I just have never understood why anyone would want an abortion of an American junk heap in their fine Porsche automobile.

[Crazyhippy]

Damned little bikes are a blast (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/aktion035.gif) I bought the bike (3 of them so far) from midsouth as they had the best prices on the 1st and the service brought me back

But i like Horsepower i cant know anything about keeping exit speeds high (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/bootyshake.gif) (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/flipa.gif) (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/slap.gif)

[Crazyhippy]

QUOTE (grantsfo @ Aug 20 2005, 12:51 PM)

Maybe a better question is how could you toast the brakes on a 1.7? I'm starting to understand why you need the v8! ..and remember Jake readily admits he doesnt have many 914 customers - the number of 4's greatly out numbers modified cars - most people recognize that a V8 in this car completely defeats the purpose of the car. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif) I just have never understood why anyone would want an abortion of an American junk heap in their fine Porsche automobile.

Turn 5 @ LVMS had me going from the top of 4th gear to the top of 2nd, It was the hardest braking zone for meand when hte track got some temp in it, and the tires were warm, i could cook the brakes in 5-6 laps. Tried to ease up and brake earlier adn it wasn't working... had to STAND on the pedal one lap to get whoaed down enough and that was it. Not sure if i boiled the brake fluid or burnt up the pads. The next weekend i was installing 911 vented stuff and now carrying 45mph more into the corner (and 130lbs more) i do not have the same problem (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/confused24.gif)

As far as the "abortion of an American Junk heap" It fits in nicely in the abortion of a porsche automobile (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif)

[SirAndy]

QUOTE (Crazyhippy @ Aug 20 2005, 01:26 PM)

So no one needs anything beyond the stock brakes? I've experianced brake fade bad enough that i pulled off track with sticky tires and a carbed 1.7 (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/unsure.gif)  Must be the sticky rubber overwhelming the brakes, probably should go back to the factory pizza cutters

i never said there aren't situations when the stock brakes are not good enough anymore.
however, that usually involves "a lot" of other non-stock parts on the car to be true.
you, on the other hand, made a general statement regarding the stock brakes being a joke "The 914 brakes are a joke", which i strongly disagree with.
as i said, "the stock 914 brakes are more than adequate for a stock car" if in good working condition. which might have been part of your problem ...

QUOTE

What brakes are on your car?

'85 carrera all around, together with a complete '85 carrera frontend.
which only proves that i was young & dumb like you once ... (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/smile.gif)

actually, i had been playing with the idea of a bigger /6 motor in which case upgrading the brakes would be a good thing.
the motor never happened and the brakes are definately *total overkill* for my current ~120HP 2056 ...
(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/driving.gif) Andy

[Crazyhippy]

QUOTE (SirAndy @ Aug 20 2005, 01:14 PM)

"the stock 914 brakes are more than adequate for a stock car" if in good working condition. which might have been part of your problem ... (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/driving.gif) Andy

If you add when being driven on the street i'll agree.

They do not cut it on the track. They do not have the capability to handle the heat generated repeatedly.

[SirAndy]

QUOTE (Crazyhippy @ Aug 20 2005, 02:18 PM)

If you add when being driven on the street i'll agree. They do not cut it on the track. They do not have the capability to handle the heat generated repeatedly.

now we're getting somewhere ...

you conveniently forgot to mention the "on the racetrack" part in your initial post ...
(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/cool_shades.gif) Andy

[grantsfo]

My sense is that V8 conversion guys are just trying to make up for ..well the same thing Corvette drivers are. And I'm sure the V8 conversion guys can out argue this 6 verses 8 topic as they have lots of practice arguing the endless Ford verses Chevy debate. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif)

And as far as "real" racing goes I think you would find real race car drivers would opt for a little less output and more balance when they are in a "real" race. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/lol2.gif)

[Crazyhippy]

Adequit brakes would be adequit everywhere. Eswpecially on a sports car that is likely to be used on the track.

I porsches defense w/ the tire technology available in the 70's the brakes might have been ok. Since 90% of the cars here (probably higher as the only people still on old tires are the concourse hardcores) on modern tires, the brakes no longer are enough.

On the street they'll be ok, you shouldn't be above 5-6 10ths. They might be ok autocrossing as well, as they are loaded for 45 sec or so, and then given a few minutes to cool. Beyond that however...

[SirAndy]

QUOTE (Crazyhippy @ Aug 20 2005, 02:36 PM)

Eswpecially on a sports car that is likely to be used on the track.

this might come as a surprise to you, but the overwhelming majority of 914s are *not* driven on the racetrack ...

(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/cool_shades.gif) Andy

[Crazyhippy]

QUOTE (grantsfo @ Aug 20 2005, 01:33 PM)

My sense is that V8 conversion guys are just trying to make up for ..well the same thing Corvette drivers are. And I'm sure the V8 conversion guys can out argue this 6 verses 8 topic as they have lots of practice arguing the endless Ford verses Chevy debate. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif) And as far as "real" racing goes I think you would find real race car drivers would opt for a little less output and more balance when they are in a "real" race. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/lol2.gif)

hell that's the whole reason i ride the Pocketbike.. when you sit on it naked it makes my dick look HUGE (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/mueba.gif) (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif)

I'm guessing you haven't driven a reasonably sorted v-8 car. The weight difference is about the same as putting a passenger in your car (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/confused24.gif) and the balance is the same as a 914-6. We all know how famously bad the 914-6 handles (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/rolleyes.gif)

Nice try though

[grantsfo]

QUOTE (Crazyhippy @ Aug 20 2005, 01:36 PM)

Adequit brakes would be adequit everywhere. Eswpecially on a sports car that is likely to be used on the track. I porsches defense w/ the tire technology available in the 70's the brakes might have been ok. Since 90% of the cars here (probably higher as the only people still on old tires are the concourse hardcores) on modern tires, the brakes no longer are enough. On the street they'll be ok, you shouldn't be above 5-6 10ths. They might be ok autocrossing as well, as they are loaded for 45 sec or so, and then given a few minutes to cool. Beyond that however...

The stock brakes are more than adequate for a stock 4. My 914 ran back to back 20 minute sessions on Streets of Willow with absolutely no fade. And that was with John Williamson driving the car in the session before mine. I have also had long backroad sections down steep mountain passes with absolutely no fade and thats with r compound tires. But thats the difference in somone who bleeds the brakes and keeps fresh pads on the car and someone who ignores their brakes. If you tend to ignore your brakes then upgrade is definitely in order.

[Crazyhippy]

Understood SirAndy, but the car was designed and built to be...

And an excellent shot at me Grant. Misguided but a nice shot none the less.

[grantsfo]

QUOTE (Crazyhippy @ Aug 20 2005, 01:43 PM)

QUOTE (grantsfo @ Aug 20 2005, 01:33 PM) My sense is that V8 conversion guys are just trying to make up for ..well the same thing Corvette drivers are.  And I'm sure the V8 conversion guys can out argue this 6 verses 8 topic as they have lots of practice arguing the endless Ford verses Chevy debate.  :D And as far as "real" racing goes I think you would find real race car drivers would opt for a little less output and more balance when they are in a "real" race. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/lol2.gif) hell that's the whole reason i ride the Pocketbike.. when you sit on it naked it makes my dick look HUGE (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/mueba.gif) (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif) I'm guessing you haven't driven a reasonably sorted v-8 car. The weight difference is about the same as putting a passenger in your car (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/confused24.gif) and the balance is the same as a 914-6. We all know how famously bad the 914-6 handles (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/rolleyes.gif) Nice try though

Everyone knows a passenger in the car is worth at least a second in an AX.

...and I wasnt refering to size of your unmentionables with the Corvette comment! Everyone knows Corvette drivers need all that power because they dont know how to drive. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/smilie_pokal.gif)

[J P Stein]

QUOTE (grantsfo @ Aug 20 2005, 01:54 PM)

Everyone knows Corvette drivers need all that power because they dont know how to drive. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/smilie_pokal.gif)

You really need to get out more, Grant. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif)

I had Tom Kotzian jump into my car at a SCCA practice session
recently......he's a former 3 time national champ in SS.
He hadn't driven a 914 in about 15 years. After a quick refresher course on the 914 shift pattern in the lanes, he knocked a second off my best time...on his first pass. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/blink.gif)
...a 27 vs my 28 sec pass.....a lifetime on such a short course.
I've got 100 bucks that says you can't do the same.

I figure you were doing a bit of bench racin' with that comment, but I run against Vette types all the time and there are some fast mofos out there.

[Brett W]

There is a local guy that runs in stock class with all manner of Vettes. Early C4s through late model Z06s. His times are usually FTD or close to it. He has brought out everything from stock S2000 to a Stock POS Fiero and put down top times of the day before. Driver is everything in autocross.

But you get on a big track and that ain't always so.

Grant since you enjoy your four cylinder and feel that you don't need anymore to go as fast as the Trans AM boys, that's cool.

QUOTE

My sense is that V8 conversion guys are just trying to make up for ..well the same thing Corvette drivers are. And I'm sure the V8 conversion guys can out argue this 6 verses 8 topic as they have lots of practice arguing the endless Ford verses Chevy debate. biggrin.gif

And the six cylinder conversion guys must have the same problem. If Porsche designed that four cylinder it must be the end all be all of four cylinders? Get real the car was a budget partnership with VW. The engine is a VW motor, the chassis is Porsche design Karmen produced, OK Porsche doesn't have any love for the car for that reason.

As far as brakes go, Porsche's current braking test and criteria go something like this. Run the car up to top speed as fast as possible, lock the car down and come to a halt, repeat the afformentioned 10-15 times. If the brakes fade once, start the engineering process over again. Now for the stock 914 brakes they probably could handle this because the car is so damn slow in stock form that the brakes would have time to cool in between 110mph top speed runs. But for the rest of the world with a decent HP-wieght ratio brakes are a problem. Most production cars don't have enough (Volvo and Porsche exempted). Sticky tires will overheat stock porsche rakes on the street if you drive hard enough.

I like V8s, I like sixes, I like any conversion that is well done and properly thought out. I don't like rag out ass four bangers that smoke, overheat and drop valves. My Honda could outrun most of the stock 914s on the autocross course. All 104hp from the 1.6 litre motor and still run down the street and get 42mpg.

[SirAndy]

QUOTE (Brett W @ Aug 20 2005, 04:02 PM)

My Honda could outrun most of the stock 914s on the autocross course.

first, i doubt that. second, how old is your honda? i don't see too many 35 year old hondas giving brand new porsches a run for their money anywhere. i do, however, see 35 year old 914s do just that at any event i attend.

i just don't buy into this "underpowered" crap.
sorry guys, IMHO, learn how to drive before you complain about not having enough HP ...

sure, i could add a /6 with 200 more HP and maybe shave off a second or two on average, but that wouldn't make me a better driver, now would it?
that's why i'm going to run my 2056 for at least another 2 seasons.
the car has a lot more potential still.
it's not the lack of HP that's holding me back right now, it's the lack of skill on the drivers part.

until that has improved, no additional HP for me ...
(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/driving.gif) Andy

[redshift]

I see Andy's point... I mean... what if we were in Germany, and they were slagging AMC Pacers?

Shame...

(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/laugh.gif)

I need more research, after a 14 hour nap.


M

[Brett W]

I haven't seen stock 914 win anything at the Solo 2 Runoffs in a very long time. My Civic is a 90si. The 4th gen cars 88-91 are, and have dominated STS for several years now. I am not a "Honda is the best car in the world" person but it is in the same boat as the teener. A fun sporty car that has about the same power to weight ratio and just as much potential. But nonetheless, it is kinda relevent to this conversation.

So it is your premise, that until you are a F1 grade world class championship driver, you don't deserve anything more than 100hp. Based on that logic until you have a Doctorate and 25+ years experience in your chosen career path you should not be able to become a millionaire.

The "lack of HP makes you a better driver" arguement is asinine. I want 500+hp. So what. I can assure you any V8 I build will handle far better than the stock 4 cylinder car. Otherwise there is no reason to build one. My four cylinder car was nice, it would easily pull 1g on the pad. But it would get walked on by a stock SHO when I was trying to pass someone on the highway. It is cool to be able to walk all over a Vetter, 996, Boxster, etc in the twisties. Part of that is not everyone has the balls to hang it out through there, I am pretty sure that the cars can handle it, it is the owner that isn't interested in pushing it. But most of the time you don't bump into those people in the twisties, it is usually a city street or on the interstate, where all the handling in the world won't let you win.

I wrecked my car because I would do what ever it took to beat someone through the twisties, but if I had had another 100+hp I would have never had to worry about the twisties. I would have had him from the red light.

I was playing with a fellow one day in my civic (200k miles, wore out suspension etc). He was driving a new GTI with a VR6. We passed each other given it hell up one of the good twisties around here. So we stop at the top and see about a little game of lead follow. I would get him in the corners and he would walk away from me on the straights. You know what, that is the most frustrating thing on the planet. Nailing an Apex and watching the guy with 150 extra hp fuck that apex up and still pull 10 car lenghts on you. Wow all the handling in the world won't make up that kind of difference.

But the whole topic was six vs. eight. No body here care about the four. If you are reading this you either have or want one. Trying to convice someone that all the HP in the world won't make you a better driver is kind of a moot point. I'm sorry but a 95-140hp 914 is boring after about 4hours. I know I've had two. Now I want something a little more fun.