2270 Build thread, Looking forward to making all of the mistakes! |
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2270 Build thread, Looking forward to making all of the mistakes! |
Superhawk996 |
Dec 30 2023, 01:45 AM
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#41
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914 Guru Group: Members Posts: 6,663 Joined: 25-August 18 From: Woods of N. Idaho Member No.: 22,428 Region Association: Galt's Gulch |
Holy cow if Vbj listens to all this expert advice it will be 20 years before he gets to drive the thing not everyone is a premadona. I say build it fill it with oil and run the crap out of it (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/idea.gif) Or . . . Don’t fill it with oil and run the crap out of it. Could end in the same result. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blowup.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/stirthepot.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif) |
Montreal914 |
Dec 30 2023, 01:21 PM
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#42
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Senior Member Group: Members Posts: 1,742 Joined: 8-August 10 From: Claremont, CA Member No.: 12,023 Region Association: Southern California |
Next step: More measuring, reading, and finding a machinist for balancing the rotating assembly! Looks like you case is good on the crank bearing side. Need to check its decking (cylinders seating surfaces). They get hammered in with time. Obviously needs to be perpendicular with crank axis and same distance from cylinder seating surface to crank axis. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) |
Jack Standz |
Dec 30 2023, 02:40 PM
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#43
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Member Group: Members Posts: 433 Joined: 15-November 19 From: Happy Place (& surrounding area) Member No.: 23,644 Region Association: None |
@Superhawk996 I'm guessing you're like me and by the time the PG is being used we already know what our clearances will be... Both you and I will always be able to overcome roadblocks in the technical world as we have the "gotta rip it apart" mental illness! I've had it forever. I'll have active projects in process when I die. I'd bet you are similar. And here's yet another shortcoming in the horizontally opposed engine design... All my 4/6/8 cylinder builds that are not opposed are capable at PGing all bearings main and rod together with a single crankshaft install. No blocking or limiting rotation needed on anything... This is one of the reasons I advised the OP "stop and learn" as enough "T4s do it this way/everyone else does not" exist to be critical. The T4 is not really harder than others to rebuild, just has some "non-standard" strangeness to understand. Today, with all the different oil pump diameters, I'll check my cases for proper oil pump bore/clearance as well as main and cam bores. I've NEVER done that on ANYTHING else in my life! If I have to have cases line bored, I'll request a specific oil pump bore diameter based on the oil pump I purchase. This is weird in my book... Edit: WOW! that crank is dirty for taking measurements. I hope your cleaning off each individual journal before... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif) Yes, Type IV oil pumps are an area to spend some time on during any build project. The oil galley hole on a type 1 versus a type IV pump are shown in the photo, so you might want to address that too. Leaking around the oil pump housing to case seal can cause lower oil pressure and cooling issues (oil not going through the cooler). CB Performance sells/sold(?) an o-ringed pump. And going bigger on the gears may just cause the oil to bypass the cooler resulting in a hot-running motor. This can be addressed with adjustments to the relief spring, but maybe not over size the pump to begin with is a better plan. Might want to check out Tangerine Racing for a new relief valve fix. But, there are other options: http://tp-technologie.com/products_dry_sump_oil_pump.htm Attached image(s) |
technicalninja |
Dec 30 2023, 03:19 PM
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#44
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Advanced Member Group: Members Posts: 2,259 Joined: 31-January 23 From: Granbury Texas Member No.: 27,135 Region Association: Southwest Region |
I've read many of the oil pressure/problems with oil pump installation threads on this forum.
I WOULD NOT build a T4 without Tangerine's upgrades, especially the "rebushed, modified relief valve". https://tangerineracing.com/shop/ols/produc...re-relief-valve One thing that I haven't seen yet is improving sealing of the suction side of the oil system. The pickup is fine, especially with a tuna can or larger sump set up. https://914werke.com/shop/ols/products/mini...p/v/OIL-SMP-ASM Where the oil pump slides into the case is completely "interference fit" on both the suction and pressure side. I don't give a rat's ass about a small amount of seepage on the pressure side. Sucking ANY air into the system is the "Kiss of Death" on pretty much any hydraulic system in my book. EVERY SINGLE Honda ever built will suck air into its power steering FIRST before the system dies horribly. The suction line fitting at the pump has a 70-cent O-ring that allows air to enter the system as it ages. Damages the pump slowly and the debris from the pump takes out the steering rack. Changing this O-ring (easy!) is a PM that I always include if I'm doing anything that is close by. It's included on every single PS flush job I do. New reservoir as well (stupid cheap-even from Honda) and it has a filter in it. The T4 oil pump has the same weakness (without the O-ring!) and I wonder how many of the "trouble with OP threads" could be traced back to this. I'm either going to be a pin-headed-bitch regarding pump to housing clearance OR (if I can!) machining an O-ring register on the outside of the pump and fitting O-rings to the pump. This might make assembly "finicky". To the OP. If the above mods I listed are new to you, you need to educate yourself on oil mods for your engine. Depending on use and where you're at an auxiliary oil cooler could be called for. An aux cooler, streetcar based, should have thermostatic control in my book. It is as important to get your oil above the boiling point of water as it is to keep temperatures below a specific temp. I prefer my oil temps to be in the 220-230 range. 250 is getting too hot for me. My experience come from a basically water-cooled world (little bit of air-cooled, long time ago). The more experienced members may have better input on temps, sometimes the AC stuff has surprised me! I learn new shit all of the time too, that's one of the reasons I post. You SHOULD triple stock HP. You ARE tripling heat as well, maybe more... With what I have read regarding the Tangerine valve I would include that upgrade on EVERY SINGLE T4 build I do. Even if I was going full "cheapest build" possible. |
technicalninja |
Dec 30 2023, 04:34 PM
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#45
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Advanced Member Group: Members Posts: 2,259 Joined: 31-January 23 From: Granbury Texas Member No.: 27,135 Region Association: Southwest Region |
Target Down!
This is why I get into threads. This is how I learn... Machining hemispherical O-ring seats in oil pump housings has already been done by someone else and might be available. Thank you! I was going to research available oil pumps soon. I've seen snippets regarding a custom T4 pump builder (maybe it was on the samba) that requires more investigation for me. I've got so many more pressing things to do that have to come first... Like bending/reshaping the front fender on my once "never damaged" MSM Miata to allow passenger door actuation after trashing it on a friend's trailer. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/headbang.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/headbang.gif) |
Superhawk996 |
Dec 30 2023, 05:19 PM
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#46
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914 Guru Group: Members Posts: 6,663 Joined: 25-August 18 From: Woods of N. Idaho Member No.: 22,428 Region Association: Galt's Gulch |
I started a T4 pump thread a while back but have never really closed it out with pictures of how to pin the pump and build up of a pressure test rig.
http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=338311 Since I’ve moved, am building a shop, and have all my machine tools in storage, it’s gonna be a while. It does have a review of the 30mm CNC type 4 pump that was offered up on Samba a while back. Spoiler: they didn’t pin the idler shaft. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/dry.gif) Post #20. Maybe someone will find value in this anyway. There is a great T4 rebuild thread on Samba too - sorry no link at my fingertips. |
technicalninja |
Dec 30 2023, 05:47 PM
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#47
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Advanced Member Group: Members Posts: 2,259 Joined: 31-January 23 From: Granbury Texas Member No.: 27,135 Region Association: Southwest Region |
Life gets in the way...
Just before we moved to Granbury, I was DEEP into a E36 BMW M3 coupe restoration. I had to put the car on hold when we up-ended our world with the move. This was 10 years ago. Life happened! Career with TELCOM ended due to poor management practices. That got closer to killing me than anything else I've ever encountered. Dad got cancer. I had to open the shop. "Doesn't work well FOR others" applies to me, especially after TELCO. I have an extremely nice 98 M3 that's just waiting for me to get back at it. Important lesson with M3: Don't purchase new tires UNTIL you have the car through initial functional testing. Run and Drive BEFORE tires. I have a NEW set of DWS Contis on restored wheels on shelves now. Dates are 11 years old... I understand your dilemma SuperHawk! You still need to finish it, however. Enquiring minds want to know... Ninja HUNGRY! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ninja.gif) |
Jack Standz |
Dec 31 2023, 09:31 AM
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#48
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Member Group: Members Posts: 433 Joined: 15-November 19 From: Happy Place (& surrounding area) Member No.: 23,644 Region Association: None |
https://pmbperformance.com/products/jaycee-...w-oil-pump-26mm
Currently out of stock at PMB, but I did see it available from another vendor. This one is setup for full flow. If that's not your plan, this one could be made to work for non-full-flow. Otherwise maybe someone else knows where to get one? |
Montreal914 |
Dec 31 2023, 11:37 AM
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#49
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Senior Member Group: Members Posts: 1,742 Joined: 8-August 10 From: Claremont, CA Member No.: 12,023 Region Association: Southern California |
Jorge (George) at European Motor Works in Hawthorne, CA was making sure Shaedek pumps were to spec. I think these type 1 pumps tend to be on the smaller size OD creating loss of pressure as mentioned. If I recall, George was removing material on the OD and sleeving it to get to spec. I think he might have done the o-ring mod too, but I forget.
He’s just a call away, nice guy! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) http://www.europeanmotorworks.com/ |
technicalninja |
Dec 31 2023, 11:40 AM
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#50
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Advanced Member Group: Members Posts: 2,259 Joined: 31-January 23 From: Granbury Texas Member No.: 27,135 Region Association: Southwest Region |
@Jack Standz
Thank you for posting! Once again, changed my outlook a little bit. I was planning on two individual O-rings directly around the two ports in the pump. You would have to bend the O-rings while inserting and you might cut the O-rings on the ports in the case hence my "finicky" install. Just putting a single O-ring around the entire pump should work great! Easier to machine, easier to install, more "robust", Fewer parts usually means more reliable! Ninja STUPID! Thanks for educating me... Now I need education on how to tag a user with a space in their user name. Solve one issue, create another... Probably just Ninja stupid again! |
technicalninja |
Dec 31 2023, 11:45 AM
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#51
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Advanced Member Group: Members Posts: 2,259 Joined: 31-January 23 From: Granbury Texas Member No.: 27,135 Region Association: Southwest Region |
Jorge (George) at European Motor Works in Hawthorne, CA was making sure Shaedek pumps were to spec. I think these type 1 pumps tend to be on the smaller size OD creating loss of pressure as mentioned. If I recall, George was removing material on the OD and sleeving it to get to spec. I think he might have done the o-ring mod too, but I forget. He’s just a call away, nice guy! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) http://www.europeanmotorworks.com/ I second that! I called him with a bunch of weird "ninja" questions. These can be hard to answer! He KICKED ASS! I will have to hit him up when it comes time to make my choice. I AM WAITING for SuperHawk too... I like "The Hawk's" way of doing things! |
Superhawk996 |
Dec 31 2023, 12:17 PM
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#52
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914 Guru Group: Members Posts: 6,663 Joined: 25-August 18 From: Woods of N. Idaho Member No.: 22,428 Region Association: Galt's Gulch |
Ah - the link to the Samba T4 pump rebuild is as in my thread. The author does a great job documenting a T4 pump rebuild.
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=699156 I have a mill and would use a single point carbide drill capable of easily drilling the case hardened idler shaft so I would pin it a little differently but the method outlined here is perfectly plausible for those with only a drill press. I didn’t touch on it in my thread but the main problem with larger gears like 30mm is that too much pressure will cause the oil cooler to bypass. This in turn creates overheating. If running an auxiliary cooler with long hose lengths to the front of the car and back plus restriction of a an external thermostat - the 30mm pump would be fine. |
technicalninja |
Dec 31 2023, 02:18 PM
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#53
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Advanced Member Group: Members Posts: 2,259 Joined: 31-January 23 From: Granbury Texas Member No.: 27,135 Region Association: Southwest Region |
Ah - the link to the Samba T4 pump rebuild is as in my thread. The author does a great job documenting a T4 pump rebuild. https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=699156 I have a mill and would use a single point carbide drill capable of easily drilling the case hardened idler shaft so I would pin it a little differently but the method outlined here is perfectly plausible for those with only a drill press. I didn’t touch on it in my thread but the main problem with larger gears like 30mm is that too much pressure will cause the oil cooler to bypass. This in turn creates overheating. Doesn't the Tangerine valve fix this issue? That was the "oh wow, valve is a must" moment for me. If running an auxiliary cooler with long hose lengths to the front of the car and back plus restriction of a an external thermostat - the 30mm pump would be fine. How about T-stat and short lines to a Setrab back by the transmission? |
Superhawk996 |
Dec 31 2023, 02:41 PM
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#54
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914 Guru Group: Members Posts: 6,663 Joined: 25-August 18 From: Woods of N. Idaho Member No.: 22,428 Region Association: Galt's Gulch |
I’m not going to comment too much on the Tangerine relief since I don’t know what pressure he has it set to. It clearly has a place if the engine relief bore is worn and/or if the spring has become weak.
I did a quick measurement of spring rate, distance between the relief passage and closed position and the piston size of my low mileage engine GA000099. I calculated it was something like 80-84 psi needed to bypass the cooler so I’m not worried about my relief valve opening prematurely when engine is warmed. Since that engine is not yet assembled I can’t comment on how accurate my calculation turned out to be. I will say that I wouldn’t hesitate to use the Tangerine relief replacement if I have any signs of unusually low oil pressure. The bottom line is too much pressure isn’t good for stock cooler longevity and will blow out the seals / leak if pressure is too high. Where that system goes tilt is an unknown and why I’d like to eventually build up a pressure test rig - just for my own learning and verification of T4 pumps. If running an aux cooler with hard plumbed fittings there would be no oil cooler seals to blow out. |
technicalninja |
Dec 31 2023, 03:36 PM
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#55
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Advanced Member Group: Members Posts: 2,259 Joined: 31-January 23 From: Granbury Texas Member No.: 27,135 Region Association: Southwest Region |
You might look closer at that valve...
I was EXACTLY like you in my original assessment. Needed for damaged stuff! My T4 core has a FLAWLESS relief valve bore. The valve itself is perfect... I was planning on reusing it till I saw the bit regarding changes to flow rate between cold and hot and how hot high pressure could do EXACTLY what you referenced. One of the differences between the Tangerine valve and stock specifically addressed this issue. At that point it became "must have at pretty much any price" for me. The fact that it's less than a hundred bucks makes it easier to swallow. I'll have to look at one closely when I purchase but that one design difference (if it works like it was described!) could be the WHOLE MOTOR in a worst-case scenario. The Tangerine valve should have been that way the Germans designed it from the get-go in my book. TRs getting my money! At least once... |
cgnj |
Jan 1 2024, 03:10 PM
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#56
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Senior Member Group: Members Posts: 653 Joined: 6-March 03 From: Medford, NJ Member No.: 403 Region Association: None |
Attached File(s) techbull.pdf ( 141.2k ) Number of downloads: 48 |
technicalninja |
Jan 1 2024, 04:35 PM
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#57
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Advanced Member Group: Members Posts: 2,259 Joined: 31-January 23 From: Granbury Texas Member No.: 27,135 Region Association: Southwest Region |
Just looked through that. Thanks, cgnj!
Rod mods look fine (if you're reusing stockers) I believe you should either have spray from a rod-based hole or dedicated piston crown sprayers. Thier suggestions regarding shims/head fire rings should be taken with a grain of salt, especially if you're building a non-stock motor. I believe you should choose your deck height via measurements during your build. Just saying use a 1.6mm ring under the barrels is not enough in my book. You should end up with the perfect spacing via dial indicator and only THEN should you look to what is available. Choose what is closest, make your own, machine barrels, what every it takes to get close to your chosen deck height. Deck height varies for different alloys. Forged with low silica will require more bore and deck clearance vs a hypereutectic cast piston. Look to your piston manufacture for their suggestions. The original clearance in the TSB (technical service bulletin) are WAY tight in my book. Original bore to piston is from .00086" to .0015". This is a "9 tenths" clearance!!!! Less than a thousands for an air-cooled motor! Freaking tight! They had problems accordingly... Cast I'd expect to be running at least .002" and more likely .0025". I like tight quench motors and I'd run more that .035 but less than .040 on cast. Forged would be higher. At least .004" P/C and .045"+ quench. The rod idea has merit, the suggested deck height changing procedure is not really applicable to a "built" motor in my book. |
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