123 Install Today - GETTING CLOSER..., PROGRESS: BAD MPS Options

[FlacaProductions]

Ran great other than warm due to vac can not holding vac anymore. Whole reason for the change to 123

[emerygt350]

Hmmm. Have you tried rotating the distributor?

[Lockwodo]

Yes, I'm wondering if the advance is way low, perhaps even retarded ATDC at this point. You could try adding advance by moving the distributor. Or, the 123 interface allows you to bump up advance on the fly.

[FlacaProductions]

@emerygt350 - Yes - rotated both ways but CCW did seem to make it run noticeably better but still not good enough. still with a very low idle.

I also added advance inside the tune function of the 123 app. that didn't do it either.

I'm done guys.
My time here is up.
And I have a new oil leak somewhere due to all of this. I'm sure rocking it around for two days didn't do it any favors.

So much for an easy 123 install. It's not the 123, it's me, i'm sure.

[emerygt350]

I struggled for a bit with mine too but after I realized the actual position doesn't matter I got it. It took a few "green lights" before I had it going. With mine I wanted to get the vacuum port pointing in a specific spot. How much of a swing did you give it? Mine will run fine plus 20 degrees and -10 from tdc at idle.

Mine is not Bluetooth though.

[Stratfink]

Process was: remove 123, confirm TDC, install old dizzy for alignment confirmation/location of coil/plug 1, remove old dizzy, install 123, green LED test, connect black coil wire, load flat 10 degree curve, start.

It sounds like you’re out of time, but just to confirm, after the process above was completed, did you use the timing light and rotate the dizzy until flywheel timing matched the 10 degrees that the curve was set to? This has to be done before loading the other advance curves - in my case the idle increased significantly during this process.

Sorry if this restates what you already know or tried…

[914_teener]

Okay so progress…

So I want to be sure. You set the engine to TDC. Not being funny, this has tripped up more than a dozen people in the past. If you are absolutely positive that the engine is at TDC, THEN check that dizzy drive gear to ensure it’s in the correct position. If that is correct, then drop your dizzy in and turn it until the green light. The green light is only telling you that your dizzy is now pointing at cylinder one (and since we checked TDC in step one, we know the engine is at TDC. So we have green light at TDC…so we’ll get a spark on cylinder 1 when the engine is exactly at TDC, and we know that a spark when the engine is at TDC happens too late, because the process of generating a spark and getting it to the cylinder takes time…about 8 degrees of time when we’re at idle. Will the car run (idle) with no advancing of the timing? Yup, and I suspect that’s where you’re having problems. So right now the car is idling but poorly. This is the time we’d turn the car off and then turn the key back on (but don’t start the car). Then load your app and load a curve. I’ll post a photo of my curve (1.8L, stock L-Jet).

As for vacuum, I plugged mine. The 123 can use MAP but I can’t see any reason to use it you don’t need any vacuum signal for advance because, well, you have a 123 now, you just program in the advance as a more or less aggressive curve .

Wrong, he has...or so he says D-jet it uses a speed density circuit for fuel and not air volume.

How do you set a "more aggressive curve" to the needs of the engine on part load? It's dynamic and not the static timing. With stock D-jet that doesn't work very well. In the instructions the advance is cumulative from the vacuum signal. Otherwise....you will just be guessing. You could use the MAP function but why? D-jet is a hard mapped totally closed loop fuel injection system that is designed for a certain VE (Volumetric Efficiency).

The OP started the thread this way, should he use the vaccum set up? Kinda blows my mind and when I used to read Jake Raby's threads here. Some of his responses were redundant.

Number one thing here that I read is:

It's never easy when you take a little information without the benefit of experience and assume it will be easy. It's a set up to ignore things and information you should be paying attention to.

Never saw in the thread whether or not the timing notch was correctly lined up. Since it was compared to someone elses....maybe its okay? Did the OP skip a step....??

I think I even offered to come help but he's in Indiana and not the Los Angeles area as I understood it.

Offer is still open...maybe someone else can help him out?

[technicalninja]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif)

I bought a carb and 1.8l BT version from a member here used.

I have not installed it yet.

Until last night I hadn't looked at the documentation.

After, I have more questions NOW than I did before.

It says "boost retard" which is KICK ASS for blown or nitrous injected stuff.

Its posted KPA range is 0-100.

It can't see boost!

As for which vacuum source to use, they suggest the "vacuum line from the carburetor!"

Most carburetors have both manifold and ported vacuum ports on them.

Those are some piss poor instructions IMO...

The advance curve shown in the first "Beauty" picture is textbook "performance" for a vehicle running a base timing of 15 degrees.

The advance curve plots in the instructions are TRASH! Maybe it's me, maybe I'm reading em wrong.

More (new) questions for me...

I need further education! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ninja.gif)

[Dave_Darling]

D-Jet is open-loop; there is zero feedback from the engine about the actual mixture that is achieved.

Many of the D-Jet cars used vacuum advance and retard both. It makes sense that you could use either one on a 123 distributor.

I do agree that the basics need to be re-confirmed. Double check the timing marks on the fan against the flywheel.

--DD

[FlacaProductions]

@Stratfink - No apologies - it's gotta be timing.
I did use a timing light and rotated in an effort to confirm/sync but i couldn't get enough of a steady idle to really be confident in setting anything. And even if/when i was close, it wasn't a steady enough of an idle to call it a win.

@914_teener - I'll be honest, I'm starting to wonder if I"m working off the/a correct TDC marking...and yes I'll admit that I have very little experience but I am "mechanical" and can follow directions and make logical deductions. I readily admit that when this is resolved, I'll be found to be the issue.

I truly appreciate any offer to come to me and help - I'd love for that to be the case and there is lots available in LA where I live most of the year but the 914 is on a bit of a 914 island in SE Indiana at another property so I only get at it for short bursts.

[FlacaProductions]

I do agree that the basics need to be re-confirmed. Double check the timing marks on the fan against the flywheel.
--DD

Dave - I totally agree.
This is what I've been doing:
On a mid-rise lift, in 5th gear, having a partner block one wheel while turning the other and watching thru the timing hole.

Red mark comes thru first...and then white. That's what I'm using for TDC
When the white mark is lined up, there is also a mark that appears and lines up in the transmission inspection hole.

I hope someone can tell me where I'm incorrect. Please.

[iankarr]

Installing and setting to the green light basically just gets you to a point where the engine will run. Have you synchronized the distributor and the software? That can't be done at idle.

Here's a repost of the method Jake Raby recommended which worked great for me.

– First, follow the directions for installation (using the green light), which will get you to a point where the car runs. (you seem to be at that point now).
– Set a curve point for 8 degrees @ 1K RPM, a point for 27 degrees @ 3000 rpm and a point for 27 degrees at 5K. Load that curve into the 123 distributor.
– Hook up a timing light, cap off the vacuum line and rev the engine to 3K RPM. I like to aim at the notch on the flywheel. Rotate the 123 until you’re showing 27 degrees BTDC @3K on your timing light and then lock the unit down.

The app and dizzy are now synched and you’ve approximated a simple stock curve. Now the fun begins. Drive around and see if there are any flat spots in acceleration. Make note of the rpm’s where the power seems to dip. Add points there to fine tune the advance. You’ll probably need a little more advance a little earlier. You may also need to tweak your idle advance a bit until it runs smoothly. Of course the condition of your engine, altitude and a bunch of other factors come into play.

[914_teener]

D-Jet is open-loop; there is zero feedback from the engine about the actual mixture that is achieved.

Many of the D-Jet cars used vacuum advance and retard both. It makes sense that you could use either one on a 123 distributor.

I do agree that the basics need to be re-confirmed. Double check the timing marks on the fan against the flywheel.

--DD

Yep...Dave you are correct. I'll leave my post unedited...it is open loop...it is a hard mapped injection system with no sensor feedback to adjust the mixture.

[FlacaProductions]

@iankarr - Thanks for this but your original post of this text was my guide for the install. I actually called my sync profile "Ian Raby start timing" so...it's kinda your fault! (I kid...I kid...)

I've done the install, green light, load the/a curve - and that's where it goes wrong. Idle so low it barely stays running and a HUGE flat spot to the point where I can't rev it with any consistently to get a light on it. I've had zero fun with this.

Something I was hoping would take 3-4 hours to do has stretched into 4 days.

I'm on a plane today and will give it another swing in a couple of months when I'm back. Right now, I declare defeat.

[iankarr]

Hmmm. I’d verify all connections to the dizzy and the plugs. It’s also possible that you dislodged an injector connection or something else while you were working in there. Good luck…this too shall pass!

[VaccaRabite]

I've done the install, green light, load the/a curve - and that's where it goes wrong. Idle so low it barely stays running and a HUGE flat spot to the point where I can't rev it with any consistently to get a light on it. I've had zero fun with this.

So, I think I recall that you changed things non-dizzy related early in this thread.

I THINK I recall on of them being your throttle bypass screw. Have you tried turning the screw and seeing what that does to your idle. Its possible that one of your backfires bent or somehow altered your throttle butterfly and you are no longer getting the right amount of air bypass for idle.

Are you firing on all cylinders?

Does the idle pick up as the engine warms up?

Have you checked all the hoses and lines? Made sure you have not blown one of them up or off during a kickback event?

I used to have my car too advanced cranking and would occasionally get a kickback violent enough to open up the rubber hoses that connected the runners to the plenum. Which resulted in a runaway engine if I did not shut it down immediately.

Take a step back. Look over the engine. Backfires can be damaging, see if something got knocked out of place.

Zach

[emerygt350]

Yeah, I would check all the bits... Injectors, plug wires, etc. to me it sounds like it's running on two cylinders. Maybe the connecters for the trigger points are not in the right slots? You said you swapped them and it might have made a difference. I wonder if you are not triggering only one bank?

[FlacaProductions]

Keep in mind that i'm now away from the 914 so this will be from memory....
@VaccaRabite - yes - I've adjust two things: idle bypass screw with no/minimal effect - and the ECU knob, also with no noticeable effect. ECU was put back in the middle.

Seems to me that a high idle would be indicative of a vacuum leak. I'm the opposite of this - low, low idle and it will not come up.

@emerygt350 - I agree on sounding like 2 cylinders. I did swap the two connectors and it made minimal difference at best. Certainly nothing that drastically or dramatically altered the situation.

I have a number of frustrating weeks ahead and I ponder this but I think the best thing to do would be to go back to zero. I'll put the original distributor back in and see what happens. After all, it ran great but the vac can not holding vacuum was the reason for the switch to a 123. I'm assuming that will reveal much.

I suppose there is always the possibility that the 123 was DOA but putting the original back in should help shed light on that as well.

I should have done that a long time back but i guess i always felt I was THAT close to turning a corner....

[emerygt350]

Keep in mind that i'm now away from the 914 so this will be from memory....
@VaccaRabite - yes - I've adjust two things: idle bypass screw with no/minimal effect - and the ECU knob, also with no noticeable effect. ECU was put back in the middle.

Seems to me that a high idle would be indicative of a vacuum leak. I'm the opposite of this - low, low idle and it will not come up.

@emerygt350 - I agree on sounding like 2 cylinders. I did swap the two connectors and it made minimal difference at best. Certainly nothing that drastically or dramatically altered the situation.

I have a number of frustrating weeks ahead and I ponder this but I think the best thing to do would be to go back to zero. I'll put the original distributor back in and see what happens. After all, it ran great but the vac can not holding vacuum was the reason for the switch to a 123. I'm assuming that will reveal much.

I suppose there is always the possibility that the 123 was DOA but putting the original back in should help shed light on that as well.

I should have done that a long time back but i guess i always felt I was THAT close to turning a corner....

There are 3 'places' you can put the 2 trigger point connectors. I wonder perhaps if one of them isn't in the right slot?

[FlacaProductions]

two pins, 3 slots. basically, leave the center slot open - according to Ed at 123, the center is never in play