123 Install Today - GETTING CLOSER..., PROGRESS: BAD MPS Options

[VaccaRabite]

Did you ever test spark to make sure each cylinder was actually getting spark? I know this was suggested before but I don't recall if you ever did that.

If you are getting spark, I'd consider sending the unit back for testing and/or replacement.

Especially if you put your old dizzy back in and the engine wakes up again!
If you put the old unit back in and issues persist, something happened during kickback, and you need to determine what it was. I'd follow hoses that could carry a pulse of pressure and test everything. There are not that many thing that could have been damaged or knocked out of alignment, so check each one. Don't pull everything off at once (like I always do because I'm frustrated).

Zach

[FlacaProductions]

I did not test spark to every cylinder - i honestly can't remember which ones i did. I should have been more diligent on that test.

The FIRST TWO things i'm going to do:
- CONFIRM by ID of stamped "0" in the notch that I'm truly at TDC.
- if that doesn't change things, I'm putting the original back in and see what that reveals.

re: finding TDC - I'm ok to spin the motor with a ratchet on the center bolt of the fan, right? Haven't been doing it that way - I've been turning it over by blocking one wheel and turning the other in 5th but it sure would be easier to find/confirm "0" if i could keep watching the notch while going slowly....

[technicalninja]

Heads up!

One of my fans ONLY has a mark at 7 or 9 degrees. This puppy DOES NOT have a "0" tdc mark. This is the original fan on my 75 1.8L

A 73 2.0 fan I got from 914Sixer has a 0 mark and another at 37 degrees.

Some of the fans have crappy marks.

The 73 2.0l fan will go on the 75 after I mark it 180 degrees out for leak down tests.

The 75 fan will get properly indexed during an engine build (dial indicator/degree wheel).

I'm a HUGE believer in marking balancers/fans/flywheels for ALL firing position.

4 cyl will have 2 marks 180 out
6 cyl will have 3 marks 120 out
8 cyl will have 4 marks 90 out
And so on.

Why would anyone build a timing mark senario that didn't include TDC? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/dry.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/dry.gif)

[FlacaProductions]

@technicalninja - This motor was built by Brad Mayeur (prior to my ownership) so I don't think there is anything non-standard or funky going on with marks. I've sent him an email to see what his "standard practices" are. I also have a marking that lines up in the trans inspection hole when I have previously assumed I was at TDC. I believe it's 3 dots...

[technicalninja]

You should be fine then.

I would automatically mark any balancer as I noted on ANYTHING I had the balancer out on.

On a serious build I'd be using a dial indicator and a degree wheel on all TDC points and I'm prone to fully degree it if possible.

That doesn't matter on a T4 as you cannot easily change cam timing on the fly.

On all the modern DOHC engines with adjustable timing gears the "completely degreed" balancer makes cam adjustment a bunch easier.

Your mark should be pin perfect if you had a master build it...

[FlacaProductions]

I'm still hoping i'm not finding TDC....or the 123 is DOA....

[iankarr]

Lining up the notch on the flywheel with the case split involves less contorting and inspires more confidence for me. Once that’s aligned I do a quick check of the fan to ensure the “0” is visible in the cutout..

At this point I think it’s best to get back to baseline. Confirm TDC. Ensure rotor points to wire going to #1 plug. Check all connections on FI harness, grounds and ignition harness. Follow 123 install and static timing instructions. If the engine still sputters. Put the old distributor back in. If it runs like it did before, you know the problem is the 123. If it doesn’t run well, it’s something else. I know it’s a pita but you’ll get through this with methodical troubleshooting.

[FlacaProductions]

100%
I'm bummed that it's going to be a few weeks but in reality, stepping back a bit is probably best.

[VaccaRabite]

100%
I'm bummed that it's going to be a few weeks but in reality, stepping back a bit is probably best.

We are bummed too!

We want instant gratification!
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beer3.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/bootyshake.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beer.gif)

[technicalninja]

@iankarr gives good advice. I agree with his suggested steps.

Have some tips to determine TDC on #1

It's fine to turn the engine via the crank bolt IMO, Easier to do with the plugs out.

Old school way: Install the bottom half of a compression tester (or your finger if it's small and long enough to get by the tins). The comp test adaptor I normally remove the Schrader valve from the engine end. I've just made a tube that is screwed into #1 spark plug hole. Place finger over end and turn engine until you feel pressure. This is the start of the compression stroke. Turn engine in normal direction until timing marks align.

You're at TDC compression on #1 now.

Second way via the valves

Valve cover off for #1 cylinder. Place engine at TDC mark. Feel rocker arms. If they're lose your golden. If tight, rotate engine 360 degrees and recheck.

Using steel pushrods? At TDC compression you will be able to rotate them
At TDC exhaust you won't.

And lastly with a leak down tester. At TDC compression if will work fine and show you "normal" readings. At TDC exhaust the valves are open and the leak down tester will show STUPID high leakage, especially through the exhaust (80-90% gauge showing 10-20 "remaining" percent is common). It hisses like a pissed off cat when you're here.

When I'm leak testing an engine, I'll place it on TDC crank, check #1 and if I'm TDC exhaust I'll just start the leak down testing from the opposing cylinder in the firing order.




I spoke with Ed@123Distrubutors awhile ago regarding the vacuum source and the "boost retard" questions I had. We have started a conversation with the tech guy Sebastian at the manufacture to get accurate answers to this.

They have better, more detailed, curve instructions under "misc help" and it answered the "piss poor" curve questions. Those are shown in "distributor" degrees and should be DOUBLED when changing to crankshaft degrees. Make a lot more sense now IMO.
Shit looked about half what it should have...

A tidbit that still leaves questions: All the text I copied from Ed's site I highlighted in red

Regarding the vacuum curve, this is a little bit more complex. 123ignition works with absolute vacuum in stead of relative vacuum. The advantage of absolute vacuum is, it works also when you drive the car on high altitudes. In case of relative vacuum, you have to adjust the ignition manually. The values in the original Bosch graph are given in mmHg, 123ignition works with kPa. First we convert the values to kPa and crankshaft degrees instead of distributor degrees. You can type in Google: 80 mmHg to kPa.

A confusing graph: Graph didn't copy over. Shows adjustment out to 200kPa (15 psi boost) but all the specs show a MAP range of 0-100kPa.
Boost retard is critically important on pressurized engines, Turbo/Supercharger/Nitrous) and as I'm NOT planning on any of those on a T4 not critically important for my 914...

Until I hear back from Sebastion it appears all this feature can really do is a vacuum-based RETARD. I've never seen a vacuum retard placed for ANYTHING but an emission control process.

Because of the vacuum retard instead of advance, we face a new challenge. The graph below shows that only the orange areas can be programmed. After all, normally only advance timing is applied in the vacuum area and retard is applied in case of overpressure (turbo).


That last sentence is completely correct unless...
You're intentionally "killing the party" for emissions reasons.


I'll post their replies when I get them.

[technicalninja]

@123ignitionusa

Sending notification so Ed can see the thread with the questions I had in it.

He called me back with status (no reply yet) and seems to be a KICK ASS vendor for response...

[FlacaProductions]

I talked to Ed twice in one day. Fantastic.

[GBX0073]

Another Vote for Ed @ 123 USA Outstanding Customer service Great guy to work with !

[123ignitionusa]

This reply comes straight from the mfg.
Hope this helps

All 123\Tune and 123\Tune+ have the vacuum advance and boost retard option. Everything which you program in the MAP curve below 100kPa (atmospheric pressure) needs to have a positive advance value, which leads to vacuum advance. All values above 100kPa are overpressure (boost) and so you can only enter negative advance values which is retard.

For example:

0kPa: 10 degrees
80kPa: 10 degrees
85kPa: 0 degrees
100kPa: 0 degrees
110kPa: 0 degrees
130kPa: -5 degrees
200kPa: -5 degrees

This example curve gives advance below 100kPa and boost retard above 100kPa.

[technicalninja]

Bit more info from the maunfacture's tech guy Christian...

Hello, Rick,

The standard curve included in a Tune+ is a curve for manifold vacuum.
Ported vacuum is also possible, but that requires a different curve.

The range of the vaccuum sensor is 0-200 kPa.
These are also the maximum settings when programming the curve with the Tune+ app
Best regards,
Christian van Dijk



Albertronic BV
Zuidbaan 510
2841MD Moordrecht
The Netherlands


So, as delivered it's supposed to have a manifold vacuum source. I can see how you could semi re-create for ported as you can input any negative or positive advance value (up or down 20) at any kPa value.

I think it would be a BITCH to map out a vacuum advance curve to ported vacuum.
I know what I'm doing, and I wouldn't see that as a challenge that needed to be overcome.

They have a 2-bar MAP sensor in this so it can handle boost retard up to 15psi which is KICK ASS! With today's tech and fuels, they should have put a 3-bar sensor in it.
(the MOST common). Lots of systems run more than 15 lbs. now.
Personally, if I was building this, I'd provision a 4-bar sensor for expansion.

Both Ed and Christian replied in record time in my book!

[technicalninja]

After thinking about how I'd try to "skin the cat" using ported vacuum...

Can't be done in my book.

This is the scenario that kills it.

Cruise at 70. manifold will be at 11-15 inches vacuum.
Ported will also be close to that number as the throttle blade is open enough to expose the port.
Cruise at 70 will require between 45 and 50 degrees total. We are at full centrifugal and full vacuum advance.

Hammer it WOT. Manifold vacuum should instantly drop to below 2 inches. 1.5 inches of vacuum is "Perfect restriction" amount to make carburetors function. If your carb is too small you will have more than 2 inches and if your carb is too big you will have less than 1 inch. Manifold vacuum disappears quickly when you snap the throttle open. This is MORE pronounced with ITBs.

Fuel injection can go lower restriction with no issues, this is one of its advantages over carburetors.
A fact to keep straight...
engines actually don't suck atmosphere in. They create a lower pressure atmosphere, and the ambient air pressure PUSHES the air/fuel mixture in. Less restriction is usually better.

I believe ported will not change between cruise and WOT. It is dependent on airflow across the port in the carburetor and all you did was increase the volume of the airflow by opening the throttles.
I will be testing this theory, once I get the 914 up.
Never really wondered "what does ported vacuum do at high speed/high load?"
I believe ported vacuum will INCREASE with load.
There's a chance I'm wrong.
Right now, I'd bet $100 that I'm correct.

We need 33-39 degrees advance at high-speed full load. This number is dependent on cylinder head design and the use of quench. The more efficient the engine the less total advance we need. Super common is the number 37...
I believe this is the red mark on most of the fans on T4s that you adjust timing too at 3K rpm. They're having you set MAX timing at MAX load this way. Don't the instructions tell you to disconnect vacuum hoses and plug?

This cruise to WOT advance change is WHY vacuum advances were designed in the first place. The ONLY engines that need this are engines that are operated at varing load. Aircraft and boat engines do not need vacuum advance. Stationary engines that are operated at one RPM/Load range don't need it either (truth be told, a stationary engine might get away with a fixed distributor with no advance mechanisms at all.)

Ported vacuum is NOT load based and we need timing control that is...

Can't be done with ported IMO.

Edit:
I'm now planning on plotting both manifold and ported on L-Jet stock, the classic progressive two BBL and a set of both 40 and 44 IDAs on the 75 1.8L and later on the 2056-2300 cc engine I'll end up building.

[Dave_Darling]

My suggestions:

Go back to the beginning. Double check the fan marks against the flywheel mark. Use a paint pen on the nearest fan blade to indicate TDC and one to indicate stock timing. Also mark the front of the fan pulley so you have a quick reference and don't have to unplug the timing hole. (It's just paint; it shouldn't affect anything.)

Set up the engine to TDC, and double check the rocker arms for cylinder #1 so you know you are at TDC#1. Both rocker arms will have a bit of slack. (Assuming solid lifters and stock pushrods.)

Set static timing at 0 degrees, and with 0 advance. It's not the correct timing, but that doesn't matter at this point--you're just trying to get the thing to run. Verify that the engine starts. If it starts but idles super low, you can advance the timing until it idles OK.

Grab a spare spark plug and tape it where it's visible and the end or the threads are grounded. Start the engine, then (USING INSULATED PLIERS, DON'T ASK HOW I KNOW THIS) disconnect the #1 plug wire from its spark plug and plug it into the extra one above. Look to see if it's sparking. Then plug the wire back onto the #1 plug.

Repeat for 2, 3, and 4. Make sure all of them have spark. Also make a note if any one or more of those don't have an effect on how the engine idles when you unplug them!

Shut the engine down. Remove the distributor rotor or unplug all of the plug wires. Grab a fire extinguisher, and four empty jars. Remove all four injectors from the intake runner pipes, while leaving them connected to the fuel rail. Stick each injector into one jar. Go crank the starter for ~10 seconds, then come back and look at how much fuel is in each jar. Ones that have less fuel (or empty) indicate problems.

If you can have someone else crank the starter while you look at the injectors in the jars, you can also see if they are actually spraying or only dribbling. You do want spray.

Once those are done, you know you have fuel and spark, and you know that your timing and TDC marks are as accurate as you can get them without pulling the engine apart.

--DD

[FlacaProductions]

Great checklist/procedure Dave - thank you.

I think the first, first thing is to put the old distributor back in and try it - but yes - your list.

I ordered a new distributor clamp and "while I was in there" ordered some new plug wires as well - both from LN. Despite my best efforts, the clamp just wasn't clamping anymore and the wires well....can't hurt, right? Mission creep but I need to keep the main thing the main thing...

[emerygt350]

Ported only pulls vacuum when the throttle is just cracked. Once you start opening the throttle on towards wot, the vacuum goes away (as it does in the manifold) there shouldn't be any meaningful 'venturi effect'.

[technicalninja]

Ported only pulls vacuum when the throttle is just cracked. Once you start opening the throttle on towards wot, the vacuum goes away (as it does in the manifold) there shouldn't be any meaningful 'venturi effect'.

I'm going to test this as soon as I find a vehicle with both types of vacuum; ported is rare now-a days.

I don't think it's as simple as "doesn't function at idle" and is similar at all other points but a 60 second test with a couple of vacuum gauges will prove it for me...

If so, why would you not want advance at idle? The car will both idle better and tip in throttle response should be improved.
What this did was to push heat into the cylinder heads and exhaust in a mis-understood scheme to reduce idle emissions. It's not used in modern vehicles.

I'll post what I find when I do.