Sale Pending - My purchase of 9140431482, Just facts; no spin or opinion Options

[Rufus]

Post #13:

My purpose in this thread is to share facts from my experience dealing with people in buying this car. Except for the floorpan rust, I’m not seeking advice on these issues. After my floor pan rust discovery earlier today, I can’t hold my tongue any longer. I’m leaving it to everyone to draw their own conclusions

[Rufus]

I'm sorry, what does this BAT listing have to do with any of this?

Sorry, I’ve lived this frustration for a few years.

Re the BaT listing: it’s MR’s car being sold on consignment last November; long before me first opening this thread

Quoting MR from earlier in this thread:
“As a somewhat tangential sidenote - I bought an early 911 a couple of years ago and wanted the PPI done by the shop close to the seller, since they were familiar with the car. I trusted them to give me an objective report. They told me "Sorry, we don't do those anymore." When asked why, they responded "liability concerns". Several recent high-profile cases (Jerry Seinfeld, etc.) had convinced them that the income from doing the work wasn't worth the risk of missing something and then having the buyer come after them. Now I better understand their concern.” My bolding added.

Maybe not just now, but maybe also before consigning the 911T? You decide.

[73-914]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/hissyfit.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/hissyfit.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/hissyfit.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/hissyfit.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/hissyfit.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/lol-2.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/lol-2.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/lol-2.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/lol-2.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/lol-2.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/av-943.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/av-943.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/av-943.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/av-943.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/av-943.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sheeplove.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sheeplove.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sheeplove.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sheeplove.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sheeplove.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/stirthepot.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/stirthepot.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/stirthepot.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/stirthepot.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/stirthepot.gif)

[rhodyguy]

IBTL.

[Jett]

I have read this thread several times and understand that the buyer is upset and that the seller may have overstated the work performed, but as mentioned a fully restored 6 has cost well over $100K for many years.

Not sure what one would expect when paying nearly 50% less than what a restored 6 sells for, regardless of the sellers claims.

From a legal perspective the only potential liability is with the folks that did the PPI.

I would focus on fixing the car and it appears that an additional $40k in repairs would still leave the car in a positive position.

[Rufus]

name='Jett' post='3130435' date='Feb 24 2024, 08:47 AM']
Not sure what one would expect when paying nearly 50% less than what a restored 6 sells for, regardless of the sellers claims.

Again I strongly disagree with drawing an equivalence between this transaction and others. I paid 96.6% of the seller’s ask. The fact the ask didn’t align with other transactions is irrelevant to this discussion.

Anyone remember the spring of 2020? Global shutdown, markets in turmoil, unknown health risks, oil trading below $0 / barrel?

I don’t think anyone knew what the market price of a 100 pt 914/6 was at the time.

My gripe is the contradiction between how it was represented and confirmed by PPI vs its condition

[Rufus]

IBTL.

On what grounds? No rules have been broken. And as some have said, I am providing useful information to others by sharing my findings while dissecting the car

And perhaps the thread VaccaRabite’s participating in bashing Pelican will also be IBTL’d

[Jett]

Not sure what one would expect when paying nearly 50% less than what a restored 6 sells for, regardless of the sellers claims.

Again I strongly disagree with drawing an equivalence between this transaction and others. I paid 96.6% of the seller’s ask. The fact the ask didn’t align with other transactions is irrelevant to this transaction.

My gripe is the contradiction between how it was represented and confirmed by PPI vs its condition

The PPI is not great, agreed. But I would never expect to get a concourse car for half price, so that would have been the biggest red flag.

The lesson from this thread that I take home is not to purchase a car sight unseen, and if I did (which I have) then it’s my problem to resolve.

[mepstein]

No expense spared means different things to different people. I’m not being sarcastic.

[burton73]

IBTL.

What does IBTL stand for?


In before the lock
In web forums, IBTL typically stands for "in before the lock." You're most likely to encounter this acronym in heated threads and discussions, which users think will be locked by a forum's mods.

I had no idea.

Best Bob B

[mountainroads]

Wow. This thread just keeps getting messier and messier. I'm reluctantly jumping in again to address a couple of points since my last post.

1) It seems to me one of the core issues is Rufus read "no expense spared restoration" and built a mental image of what that meant to him. Was the body shell completely stripped, acid dipped, and ceramic coated? No. I didn't think it needed to be and never claimed or pretended it was. Was every part brand-spanking new? No. I never claimed they were.

The original engine was grenaded early in it's life, the fenders flared, and the car previously tracked, so it was never going to be THAT kind of car. Removing and either refreshing or upgrading all of the mechanicals, fixing the minimal evident rust, sheet metal reinstalled where it had been removed for easier trackside engine access, a full exterior and most interior repaint, brite parts rechromed or replated, multiple parts powder coated, new windshield, fuel tank removed, cleaned, and resealed, new rubber seals, etc, etc. fits my definition of full restoration, so those are the words I used to describe the car. My checkbook certainly thought it was a "no expense spared" exercise.

2) The Gamroth inspection was definitely not comprehensive. They did it on the spot, in my garage (no lift), did a walk-around, used my compressor for the leakdown test because they didn't bring their own, visually inspected the interior, looked around inside trunks, engine bay, etc, went out for a test drive, and declared the car "bitchin". As previously stated, I would've willingly taken the car to any Seattle-area shop for a more detailed inspection if Rufus, or any other prospective buyer, had asked. I would've gladly answered any questions, willingly shared the original PPI, all the restoration pics and expense invoices with any prospective buyer or their PPI provider, gladly referred any interested party to any of the involved shops, BEFORE THE SALE, if asked. I was a bit surprised by the inspection brevity, but I thought the car spoke for itself. And, I wasn't the buyer.

The wooden block attached to the shift linkage plate in one of Rufus' pics was a Gamroth add-on. It certainly wasn't there when I sold the car.

3) I need to correct one detail that keeps coming up. The front latch panel was correct when Gamroth inspected the car. Chris noted it in my initial PPI. Rillos noticed it, sourced a used donor panel, and welded it in prior to painting. Gamroth apparently failed to note it had been replaced.

4) As communicated privately, I initially directed most of my disappointment at Chris's for sending me home with a car that obviously wasn't running quite right. I've used them for decades and only had a problem with the cost of their service. They are the least convenient of my local shops, but I thought I knew them well and considered Chris a guru. Now I'm wondering if they even took the car for a test drive when they were done. It's also now becoming increasingly apparent that Rillos didn't do as good a job as I thought he had, or trusted him to do, either. I thought I did my due diligence on him, visited regularly to check on progress, and to (mostly) write checks.

5) One of the posts in this thread notes how hard it is to get quality craftsmanship and mentions PMB as an exception. I used their restoration services on the brakes. They came back looking like jewelry. Unfortunately, one of the rear seals leaked when reinstalled, necessitating a return for fix. I suspect they weren't tested before shipment. Another delay and possibly added expense. I would add Weidman Wheels to the short list of remaining craftsmen. The wheels on Rufus' -6 are works of art.

6) I still contend the asking/selling price was VERY reasonable for what I thought Rufus was getting. Rufus is right - 2020 was crazy and uncharted territory times. I was dealing with my own health stuff and evaluating what was important to me. Under less stressful circumstances, I would've probably started in the $70-80K range, which would be typical for this kind of car, and has been for a long time.

7) Lastly, and this is where I'm trying not to be antagonistic, the sale of my 1972 911-T has absolutely nothing to do with this 914-6. I was jonesing for another early air-cooled flat six after a couple of years going without. The PO had done his own restoration and it was his preferred shop who said they no longer did PPIs. I drove down to Oregon to see the car, went for a drive with the owner, and agreed on a price over dinner with him and his wife, that night. Had it shipped up to Seattle and took it to Akers for what I called a PPI (Post Purchase Inspection). Akers assessed it as a nicely restored, solid, 911-T.

Rufus - please stop with the insinuations. I sold it for essentially the same reason I sold the 914-6. The car was stored at the weekend place and I just didn't drive it as often as I thought I would. I've come to the point in my life where I part with something if I'm spending more time and/or money maintaining it than enjoying it. I went with a broker (Avante Garde / 911R) because I wanted an easy button and I was impressed with their BAT ads, not for the reason you're suggesting. I could've sold on BAT myself, but BAT restricts the number of simultaneous auctions and their volume sellers get preferential treatment. I would've had to wait 6 months for a slot. Plus it's a lot of work to do well and I don't have the equipment or marketing acumen to do decent driving videos or glam photo spreads. BAT provides unequaled exposure and I figured a professional would get me the best selling price even accounting for the commission and their fees. That's the reason.

I wake up most nights anyway these days. Now I wake up thinking about this.

Peace out.

- MR

[Craigers17]

name='Jett' post='3130435' date='Feb 24 2024, 08:47 AM']
Not sure what one would expect when paying nearly 50% less than what a restored 6 sells for, regardless of the sellers claims.

Again I strongly disagree with drawing an equivalence between this transaction and others. I paid 96.6% of the seller’s ask. The fact the ask didn’t align with other transactions is irrelevant to this discussion.

Anyone remember the spring of 2020? Global shutdown, markets in turmoil, unknown health risks, oil trading below $0 / barrel?

I don’t think anyone knew what the market price of a 100 pt 914/6 was at the time.

My gripe is the contradiction between how it was represented and confirmed by PPI vs its condition

If you're the informed buyer that you claim to be, it would have been pretty easy to find out what the market value of a true 914-6 was back in 2020. All you had to do was look at the 914-6's being sold on BAT, which by your own admission, is a site that you are very familiar with. It's pretty disengenous to claim you had no idea what the market value of a 914-6 was in 2020. You can go look at that data right now and see that nearly every 914-6 sold during 2020 went between $75 to over $100K. You said you paid $56.5 as I recall. So, whether you admit it or not, you know you bought the car at somewhere between 50 to 75% of market value.

Now, according to your own post, it seems that you think you deserve market value on a car that you paid no where near market value on(essential what flippers try to do). Here is your post:

"But my purchase price, $56,500 was almost 4 years ago. According to Hagerty, the value of the same car today is $80,000.

The question is whether anyone would be happy paying current market price while understanding a car did not have these issues, and later find rust under fresh paint?

What MR spent on the car before selling, is irrelevant to whether I got a decent deal or not."

Why do you think you are entitled to market value when you didn't pay market value? I have tried to keep an open mind on this thread, but at a certain point it is what it is. The absolute truth is that the car has more rust than you thought. You have already proven that, regardless of the history of the car. That said, you keep sanding down more of the car like a young child picking scabs off a wound until it bleeds even more, and then providing more "evidence" of your already proven truth. That doesn't mean the prior owner knew any of this. It just shows that the PPI probably wasn't the greatest. Even then, it would be hard to definitively tell that the car had rust issues under the paint. Moreover, the car has been in your possession for over 3 years now... nobody knows what has happened to the car in those 3 years(If I am playing lawyer).

My point is this: You seem to keep posting on this thread as if it's some type of legal document which will vindicate you in some way???? or perhaps help you in future litigation??? The thread is nothing more than a bunch of people like you and me giving personal opinions of the whole messy situation. At the end of the day, you have 2 real options: SELL THE CAR or FIX THE CAR. At this point, the rest is just pissin' in the wind.

[mb911]

name='Jett' post='3130435' date='Feb 24 2024, 08:47 AM']
Not sure what one would expect when paying nearly 50% less than what a restored 6 sells for, regardless of the sellers claims.

Again I strongly disagree with drawing an equivalence between this transaction and others. I paid 96.6% of the seller’s ask. The fact the ask didn’t align with other transactions is irrelevant to this discussion.

Anyone remember the spring of 2020? Global shutdown, markets in turmoil, unknown health risks, oil trading below $0 / barrel?

I don’t think anyone knew what the market price of a 100 pt 914/6 was at the time.

My gripe is the contradiction between how it was represented and confirmed by PPI vs its condition

If you're the informed buyer that you claim to be, it would have been pretty easy to find out what the market value of a true 914-6 was back in 2020. All you had to do was look at the 914-6's being sold on BAT, which by your own admission, is a site that you are very familiar with. It's pretty disengenous to claim you had no idea what the market value of a 914-6 was in 2020. You can go look at that data right now and see that nearly every 914-6 sold during 2020 went between $75 to over $100K. You said you paid $56.5 as I recall. So, whether you admit it or not, you know you bought the car at somewhere between 50 to 75% of market value.

Now, according to your own post, it seems that you think you deserve market value on a car that you paid no where near market value on(essential what flippers try to do). Here is your post:

"But my purchase price, $56,500 was almost 4 years ago. According to Hagerty, the value of the same car today is $80,000.

The question is whether anyone would be happy paying current market price while understanding a car did not have these issues, and later find rust under fresh paint?

What MR spent on the car before selling, is irrelevant to whether I got a decent deal or not."

Why do you think you are entitled to market value when you didn't pay market value? I have tried to keep an open mind on this thread, but at a certain point it is what it is. The absolute truth is that the car has more rust than you thought. You have already proven that, regardless of the history of the car. That said, you keep sanding down more of the car like a young child picking scabs off a wound until it bleeds even more, and then providing more "evidence" of your already proven truth. That doesn't mean the prior owner knew any of this. It just shows that the PPI probably wasn't the greatest. Even then, it would be hard to definitively tell that the car had rust issues under the paint. Moreover, the car has been in your possession for over 3 years now... nobody knows what has happened to the car in those 3 years(If I am playing lawyer).

My point is this: You seem to keep posting on this thread as if it's some type of legal document which will vindicate you in some way???? or perhaps help you in future litigation??? The thread is nothing more than a bunch of people like you and me giving personal opinions of the whole messy situation. At the end of the day, you have 2 real options: SELL THE CAR or FIX THE CAR. At this point, the rest is just pissin' in the wind.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif) 1000%

[mate914]

name='Jett' post='3130435' date='Feb 24 2024, 08:47 AM']
Not sure what one would expect when paying nearly 50% less than what a restored 6 sells for, regardless of the sellers claims.

Again I strongly disagree with drawing an equivalence between this transaction and others. I paid 96.6% of the seller’s ask. The fact the ask didn’t align with other transactions is irrelevant to this discussion.

Anyone remember the spring of 2020? Global shutdown, markets in turmoil, unknown health risks, oil trading below $0 / barrel?

I don’t think anyone knew what the market price of a 100 pt 914/6 was at the time.

My gripe is the contradiction between how it was represented and confirmed by PPI vs its condition

If you're the informed buyer that you claim to be, it would have been pretty easy to find out what the market value of a true 914-6 was back in 2020. All you had to do was look at the 914-6's being sold on BAT, which by your own admission, is a site that you are very familiar with. It's pretty disengenous to claim you had no idea what the market value of a 914-6 was in 2020. You can go look at that data right now and see that nearly every 914-6 sold during 2020 went between $75 to over $100K. You said you paid $56.5 as I recall. So, whether you admit it or not, you know you bought the car at somewhere between 50 to 75% of market value.

Now, according to your own post, it seems that you think you deserve market value on a car that you paid no where near market value on(essential what flippers try to do). Here is your post:

"But my purchase price, $56,500 was almost 4 years ago. According to Hagerty, the value of the same car today is $80,000.

The question is whether anyone would be happy paying current market price while understanding a car did not have these issues, and later find rust under fresh paint?

What MR spent on the car before selling, is irrelevant to whether I got a decent deal or not."

Why do you think you are entitled to market value when you didn't pay market value? I have tried to keep an open mind on this thread, but at a certain point it is what it is. The absolute truth is that the car has more rust than you thought. You have already proven that, regardless of the history of the car. That said, you keep sanding down more of the car like a young child picking scabs off a wound until it bleeds even more, and then providing more "evidence" of your already proven truth. That doesn't mean the prior owner knew any of this. It just shows that the PPI probably wasn't the greatest. Even then, it would be hard to definitively tell that the car had rust issues under the paint. Moreover, the car has been in your possession for over 3 years now... nobody knows what has happened to the car in those 3 years(If I am playing lawyer).

My point is this: You seem to keep posting on this thread as if it's some type of legal document which will vindicate you in some way???? or perhaps help you in future litigation??? The thread is nothing more than a bunch of people like you and me giving personal opinions of the whole messy situation. At the end of the day, you have 2 real options: SELL THE CAR or FIX THE CAR. At this point, the rest is just pissin' in the wind.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif) 1000%

I agree also 1000% (IMG:style_emoticons/default/hissyfit.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/hissyfit.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/hissyfit.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/hissyfit.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/av-943.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/av-943.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/flag.gif)

[mate914]

Life is not fair. Just in case you forgot.

[jhynesrockmtn]

I wake up most nights anyway these days. Now I wake up thinking about this.

MR, I hope you sleep well at night. You've done nothing wrong, and shouldn't have to defend yourself here.

I think the only one who wouldn't agree is Rufus. For a post that has "Just the facts, no spin or opinion" in the title, his postings are increasingly paranoid and read like a conspiracy theory with a crap ton of spin.

I'll say again. You created this issue Rufus. You made all of the decisions that brought this car into your ownership. Now you're acting like a little kid who falls on the playground, skins his knee, and pops up blaming everyone else for tripping or pushing him.

[mountainroads]

@Rufus : I'm genuinely sorry you got a car that didn't live up to your expectations.  I'm now learning it didn't live up to my expectations, either.  I empathize with the number of years you've invested.  I did  7+ years before I got to drive the car again. 

I posted (in 2024) that I fully expected you to find solid pans under the deteriorated tar because that's what I believed you'd find, because Rillos assured me they were fine.  It's a complete surprise to learn there are any issues at all with the firewall.  You're going to have to believe me that I would've told Rillos to permanently fix (i.e. weld) any rust holes, if he'd brought them to my attention.  

I don't go around screwing people, so I don't instinctively watch out for other people trying to screw me.  I have to occasionally remind myself that approach to life is not without risk, because I've been burned a few times.  In this case, we both got screwed by a couple of the involved shops.  

You got the car at a fire-sale price due my personal circumstances and the unique times we were in. I've said privately that you could probably part the poor thing out and get almost all of your purchase price money back. There are some really nice bits on that car.



- MR

[73-914]

Buying from pictures is like operating a worm drive electric saw while wearing a blindfold.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif)

[Rufus]

Of course these are all no big deal too, right guys?!?

Rust under the Wurth undercoating?

What do the pictures insinuate, MR?

[rjames]

In the end I wouldn’t trust someone else to do a PPI without me looking at it in person, too.
I had a very reputable Porsche shop do a PPI on mine (before I knew what to look for myself) and they didn’t catch that part of the floor pan needed to be replaced along with small sections of the longs around the jack posts.
Relying on others to care as much as you do is unrealistic.