Sale Pending - My purchase of 9140431482, Just facts; no spin or opinion Options

[mate914]

Much of life is in the past, at least for many of us old guys here. We can learn from our experiences or not, either way nothing behind us can be changed.

Your car is a born 914/6 and that in itself is (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smilie_pokal.gif)

Get the items in need of repairs in order and enjoy her in good health

Overall she looks great and probably runs the same

Lots of sound ideas posted, including this one. Thanks guys.

I’ll take awhile deciding how to proceed. But I think one important factor is whether I can do the work myself. It’s been my practice since my first car repair disappointment in 1971. Central will be whether there’s any welding involved; something not in my repertoire. Another factor is whether rust removal, prep, priming and painting can be accomplished without further interior disassembly than seats, backpad, carpet, etc., without damaging other car surfaces, or creating a hazardous environment in the garage. I have no room in my home garage, and the car’s a “guest” in my wife’s two car garage alongside her Toyota. Thoughts?

Build a new or add on to your existing garage. Otherwise move your wife’s Toyota outside and cover it with a car cover. Your wife’s car is not worth 80 K. I don’t know how you explain it to her that’s your job.
Matt

[73-914]

It depends upon how many owners your car has had. If your seller was the original owner, that helps a lot. If there has been several owners, it is hard to say what information was or was not passed along and the ability of someone to identify incorrect things. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

The "I was told excuse" (IMG:style_emoticons/default/poke.gif)

[Rufus]

Thanks for your thoughts guys.

I should have been clearer. Seeking thoughts on if and how complete rust repair can best be accomplished (if no metal removal or welding is required) within these constraints:

1) removal of only those interior items necessary to expose the entire floor surface; seats, backpad, carpet, seat belts, while covering the dash & gages and door panels as necessary, and without affecting exterior car surfaces. In the past I did an acceptable limited rattle can rocker panel repaint with an Automotive Touchup brand color matching paint and thorough masking in my garage.
2) work cannot create a hazardous, noxious or dirty environment in the garage.

And would it be a good idea to remove the undercoating to inspect for rust there too? Remove entirely? … or just spot check in the most likely rust prone areas?

Finally, if floor pan section(s) need replacement, what extent of disassembly will be required?

[Superhawk996]

And would it be a good idea to remove the undercoating to inspect for rust there too? Remove entirely? … or just spot check in the most likely rust prone areas?

No.

914 floor pans typically rust from inside out from water accumulated inside by leaking rear window, leaking side window seals, and if the top gets left off in the rain. That moisture gets under the tar and does its thing over time.

Working on underbody is a PITA without a hoist or rotisserie. Can be done but it’s not terribly fun.

By removing the factory tar from the interior, you’ll know what you’re dealing with. If you have heavy rust that has perforated, you will be able to tell after the tar is removed.

Once you see what you have underneath the tar, you can come up with an action plan.

Honestly, given how few miles you’ve driven, why even mess with it right now?

Go drive. Decide if you even want to keep the car before opening up a can of worms and doing some sort of repair that will potentially devalue the car if not done properly.

[peteinjp]

Just read through this thread- sorry to hear of your troubles but not too surprised. The engine in my car was done at Rothsport and while it goes great at WOT there were several things that I would have expected to be better given the reputation of the shop including one that resulted in fuel being sprayed all over the engine. I will be pulling my engine to go back on the dyno to double check the rest of the tuning as the throttles can’t be synced at idle and there is a knock at certain RPMs. Kinda feels like they just pushed the job though.

I doubt that Gunther has any issues with the details of the work done there. Just sayin.

Anyway I agree with Superhawk. I hate know that something is not up to snuff on my cars but these days I have to ask myself how I want to spend my time. Also wire brush on a grinder is the way I have removed rust like that in the past. It usually ends up revealing hidden pin holes in the metal while simultaneously making a big mess. I’d definitely want to do that work outside.

If I were to take the job without welding and it turned out that there are holes I have used tigers hair to resurface the sheet metal before with good results. But again- getting it sanded down with the orbital sander is a dusty job.

Given the garage situation I’d wait till the next winter season and farm this one out to a pro.

Pete

[Rufus]

Just read through this thread- sorry to hear of your troubles but not too surprised. The engine in my car was done at Rothsport and while it goes great at WOT there were several things that I would have expected to be better given the reputation of the shop including one that resulted in fuel being sprayed all over the engine. I will be pulling my engine to go back on the dyno to double check the rest of the tuning as the throttles can’t be synced at idle and there is a knock at certain RPMs. Kinda feels like they just pushed the job though.

I doubt that Gunther has any issues with the details of the work done there. Just sayin.

Anyway I agree with Superhawk. I hate know that something is not up to snuff on my cars but these days I have to ask myself how I want to spend my time. Also wire brush on a grinder is the way I have removed rust like that in the past. It usually ends up revealing hidden pin holes in the metal while simultaneously making a big mess. I’d definitely want to do that work outside.

If I were to take the job without welding and it turned out that there are holes I have used tigers hair to resurface the sheet metal before with good results. But again- getting it sanded down with the orbital sander is a dusty job.

Given the garage situation I’d wait till the next winter season and farm this one out to a pro.

Pete

Sorry to hear of your troubles, Pete. Wishing you success in getting resolution soon.

[Rufus]

And would it be a good idea to remove the undercoating to inspect for rust there too? Remove entirely? … or just spot check in the most likely rust prone areas?

No.

914 floor pans typically rust from inside out from water accumulated inside by leaking rear window, leaking side window seals, and if the top gets left off in the rain. That moisture gets under the tar and does its thing over time.

Working on underbody is a PITA without a hoist or rotisserie. Can be done but it’s not terribly fun.

By removing the factory tar from the interior, you’ll know what you’re dealing with. If you have heavy rust that has perforated, you will be able to tell after the tar is removed.

Once you see what you have underneath the tar, you can come up with an action plan.

Honestly, given how few miles you’ve driven, why even mess with it right now?

Go drive. Decide if you even want to keep the car before opening up a can of worms and doing some sort of repair that will potentially devalue the car if not done properly.

Thanks for sharing your wisdom, Superhawk. Under different circumstances, I might just drive the car and address the rust in the future.

I feel very close to my daughter and sympathetic to challenges she could face “when the time comes”. I was a stay at home Dad for her, my only child. My car situation was a mess before buying the 914/6. Driving one has been a long time desire. I face the choice between making progress by addressing the rust now, or selfishly enjoying the car now, and letting things go. I’ll happily sacrifice some of the time I have left to ease things on her later on. As they say, Karma’s a b____.

[dstudeba]

I face the choice between making progress by addressing the rust now, and selfishly enjoying the car now, and letting things go. I’ll happily sacrifice some of the time I have left to ease things on her later on. As they say, Karma’s a b____.

Does you daughter intend to keep the car when she gets it? I am heavily involved in collecting baseball cards. Many of my fellow collectors have plans to either sell their collections before they go or have a detailed plan on another expert to sell it. If she would rather have the cash than the car I would make a plan for the car that doesn't involve her having to move it. You likely know how to get a higher return on it and it is one less thing that she will have to deal with.

And then if she wants to keep it, what is her opinion on the repairs?

[Rufus]

I face the choice between making progress by addressing the rust now, and selfishly enjoying the car now, and letting things go. I’ll happily sacrifice some of the time I have left to ease things on her later on. As they say, Karma’s a b____.

Does you daughter intend to keep the car when she gets it? I am heavily involved in collecting baseball cards. Many of my fellow collectors have plans to either sell their collections before they go or have a detailed plan on another expert to sell it. If she would rather have the cash than the car I would make a plan for the car that doesn't involve her having to move it. You likely know how to get a higher return on it and it is one less thing that she will have to deal with.

And then if she wants to keep it, what is her opinion on the repairs?

25yo daughter’s doing well making her way thru life so far; now in Charlotte after a couple years living & working in Germany after college. 5-6 older cars in the mix, so would be best if she picked just one … maybe. My tastes in cars evolved quite a bit over the past 50yrs. Imagine hers might too. And then there’s the question of what future conditions will be like. Would an extra, non-essential car bring pleasure or be a burden?

Thanks for chiming in dstudeba. Lots to think about, huh?

[jhynesrockmtn]

Sorry to hear of your experience with Rothsport. I know the name, but nothing of their reputation.

On the upside, you have a nice car and hopefully any repairs needed won't be too extreme.

It's nice that your daughter is interested in the car(s). Out of the 5 kids between my wife and I, my son is the youngest at 31. He actually bought my 83 911 from me a few years ago but wants to sell it back. Being in the military, gone a lot and with a young family, he's just not using the car. I'll end up with that, my 356 and a few 914's. My goal is to thin the herd a bit and then discuss with him long term about whether he wants any of them. I'm 61, so I have some time, but I don't want to leave a mess for my kids to handle.

[iankarr]

If the PPI is done by a guy doing the work, and so many things were noticed after the PPI, the cost of the PPI should’ve been credited against the total. With a community as strong as ours, I’ve found that most people will do a PPI as a pay-it-forward courtesy or for a nominal fee to cover their expenses. I usually just ask for a donation to St. Jude’s. Any purchase of 15K and I’ll travel to see the car before purchasing. The plane ticket is cheap insurance.

All this said, it looks like you have a great car to enjoy. And profit from if you decide to sell.

[Rufus]

@jhynesrockmtn @iankarr Thanks for your thoughts and kind words guys.

After time researching and considering the situation, my determination to make the car right hasn’t changed; hopefully will do it myself, as I prefer.

Will post photos as I get into the process of exposing the floorpan.

I think the 914 has the perfect combination of practicality, size, overall performance attributes, and is a blast to drive.

[Cairo94507]

Congratulations! You will not regret it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

[MikeK]

If my now deceased Father would have left me a car that nice, I would have little concern about some hidden rust.

[burton73]

@Rufus


These pictures make it look easy but, here is what the pan replacement looks like. When you open up the bottom, you can fix of reinforce the clutch tube that has or will go out. It is just a matter of time for all 914s. Do it right because no matter what the documenting of this work is very important for resale and you want the comfort of knowing it is right. Mine was done on a lift. Mine is a real 6, the 30th one down the line

Best Bob B

[Rufus]

@Rufus


These pictures make it look easy but, here is what the pan replacement looks like. When you open up the bottom, you can fix of reinforce the clutch tube that has or will go out. It is just a matter of time for all 914s. Do it right because no matter what the documenting of this work is very important for resale and you want the comfort of knowing it is right. Mine was done on a lift. Mine is a real 6, the 30th one down the line

Best Bob B

Thanks Bob. The result looks awesome!

Definitely not within my skill set.

Is floor pan replacement advisable, or even possible, without completely stripping the car down? (I’m totally ignorant of body & paint work.) Things like wiring harness, shift linkage gotta come out 1st, or not?

[Rufus]

Congratulations! You will not regret it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

If my now deceased Father would have left me a car that nice, I would have little concern about some hidden rust.

Thanks for your encouragement guys.

[mountainroads]

I stumbled upon this thread while perusing the early911sregistry. Although I normally refrain from engaging publicly in dirty laundry discussions, I feel compelled to in this case due to the multiple things being inferred, and to set the record straight. My response is not to refute or contest what Rufus states. I too would be unhappy if I bought a car that was significantly different than what I thought I was getting, and that Karma is a nasty lady. This is simply my contribution to “just the facts”.

First and foremost, I'm genuinely sad and disappointed to learn that Rufus isn't happy with the car. This car was sold in good faith and with no effort to deceive or mislead, just as every other car I've ever sold. The transaction went smoothly and we stayed in communication for a while, afterwards. I thought I had a new friend and would've been happy to answer any questions he had, even long after I sold it.

I bought this car from a gentleman in Tacoma, Washington. It was his pride and joy. (He also had two 914-4s.) I had the PPI done and engine dyno'd by Chris Powell at Chris's German Auto in Redmond Washington, prior to purchase. Chris is a PCA Nation Technical Committee Member and answers technical questions for 1974 - 1994 911s in Panorama. Chris's assessment was although tired and having needs, the car was solid overall. Knowing restoral wouldn't be cheap, he asked: "How badly do you want a 914-6?" I was happy to find a decent specimen relatively close to home and said: "Pretty badly." To my knowledge, I became the 4th owner.

I kept the car for a couple of years while deciding exactly what I wanted to do and began to gather parts, including a set of beautifully restored 7X15 Fuchs with RSR finish, courtesy of Harvey Wiedman. I was particularly proud of sourcing some NOS genuine 914-6 GT vented rear rotors still in boxes and wax paper, so I wouldn’t have to use cut-down 911 rear rotors with the incorrect offset.

Some research and inquiries within the local Porsche community led me to Rillos Restoration in Kent, Washington. Rillos has a good reputation and has done some award-winning cars. Although mostly American, he had a couple of 911s and a 4-cam 356 while I was there. The only caution I received was to keep an eye on billable hours because it's easy for things to get out of control. There was never a suggestion of unethical charging or poor workmanship. It was indeed a “no expense spared” (relatively, and within reason) body restoration with some desirable functional updates.

Interior work was performed by Steve Shepp at Classic Interior Restorations in Ballard, Washington. Steve was popular with the Ferrari crowd and has done some Pebble Beach award cars. It was one of the very last cars he ever did.

Chris Powell finished the engine and transmission refreshment while the body and interior work were done, so the car then went back to Chris's for mechanicals installation. Lots of little things to be sorted out along the way and some imperfections, but at no point was there any mention of major concerns with the work that had previously been done.

I kept the car for a couple of years and finally decided to sell because 1) The car was kept at a weekend place in Central Washington. Although a hoot to drive and the local roads there are much more conducive to spirited driving than Seattle, I never seemed to have the time to drive it as much as I wanted to. There always seemed to be something else that needed to be worked on or required attention. 2) I was dealing with some minor health issues at the time and wasn’t sure how much recreational driving I’d be up for going forward. So, I posted the car for sale on 914World. All restoral and service receipt documentation was passed along to the buyer.

To address some of the specific points:

1) RUST. Although there was some minor (mostly) cosmetic body rust, the multiple expert consensus (Kirsten Rillos, Chris Powell, and Mark Akers) was the car was surprisingly free of rust for being a Western Washington car its whole life. The only part that needed to be replaced due to rust was the battery tray. No damage to the longitudinal, etc. I know how expensive rust repair is. I would not have bought the car if I knew it had major rust issues. The car was always garaged and never even driven in the rain during my ownership. It was mostly garaged on the dry side of the state.

Unless things have dramatically changed, I firmly believe what looks like floorpan rust is only damage to the sound deadening material on top. I noticed that during painting and asked Kirsten about it. He reassured me it wasn’t serious and there was no evidence of damage from the underside when he removed the old undercoating. It became a “Oh well, that’s under the seats and not visible” thing. It was one of the few cost-control concessions and I never questioned the solidity of the floorboards. I never sensed any weakness or give to them, and definitely would’ve replaced them had I known they were suspect. Why go to the trouble of welding in a rear suspension stiffening kit but not address a suspect floorpan? I even had a patch panel welded into the firewall where a hole had been cut so the timing marks on the fan pully could be more easily seen. (A practical consideration since 911 cases don't have the notch for seeing the marks on the flywheel, as 914-6 cases do.) If there were any major rust issues, then three reputable shops never raised the concern. Four if you want to include the Interior guy who had the car for over a year.

2) ACCIDENT DAMAGE. This car was never advertised as “accident-free”. I believe one or both of the first two owners tracked the car. The story I got from the third owner was one of them, or one of their wives, did a little off-roading one day at the track and damaged the front end, presumably necessitating a front slam panel replacement. I'm not sure the hood was even replaced. Rillos noticed it wasn’t quite correct for a 1970 while fitting the front valance, I had sourced. I forget the details of the fix, but he altered it to make it appear correct. As far as the disclosure form (post #51), it’s hard to read, but the attestation on line 1 is the car never sustained accident damage greater than 25% of it’s value, which is true.

3) DRIVABILITY ISSUES: I too noticed the gas smell. That’s why I replaced the original plastic fuel line with braided steel over rubber. Much less noticeable afterwards and I attributed any lingering smells to the carburetors. There are a couple of threads on 914World, which I researched heavily, discussing whether or not a 1970 914-6 should have a charcoal tank vapor capture cannister.

I didn't have nearly as many electrical issues. The turn signal switch was broken when I bought the car. I sourced a used replacement and Akers installed it. The washer pump needed to be replaced. The horns were anemic, so I replaced them with used Bosch Mercedes units. The only broken wire I remember was to one of the rear license lights, which I fixed myself. Never a problem with headlights, etc. In hindsight, I could've replaced the wiring harness, but I didn't because it seemed serviceable and new is not always better.

There should be no gas tank sediment as the tank was supposedly cleaned and sealed by Chris’s. Ditto for the fuel tank screen sock. Both are big surprises and definitely should've been taken care of by Chris's.

Although far from great condition, the car was driven to Rennsport and back by the previous owner. AFAIK, without issues. And, that was before any restoration efforts.

4) GAMROTH PPI. Jeff Gamroth made the trek from south of Portland to Central Washington with one of his employees to do the PPI. They did an engine-cold compression and leakdown test before firing it up for further inspection and listening for any inappropriate noises. They seemed to know what they were doing. Jeff and I then went for a test drive and I guarantee he pushed the car harder than I ever did. Then again, he’s a professional driver. They showed up again a few weeks later with a box trailer after the sale had been completed and took the car back to Jeff’s shop. I can’t comment on subsequent inspection or work.


Bottom line: It’s a real shame that this car has received such unfavorable attention. It was never intended to be a Concours contender or presented as a perfect 100 pt. restoration. It was sold as a 50+ year old, mildly hot-rodded, driver-quality car which frequently received unsolicited compliments. Nathan Merz, Columbia Valley Luxury Cars and regular PCA contributor, took a look at the car for a celebrity client when it was for sale. Although not a formal PPI, he has a practiced eye and poked around pretty good. He passed on the car and I didn't ask why, but didn't get the sense it was because of quality concerns. My guess is his client was looking for something more original.

Lastly and FWIW: Mark Akers, the owner of Akers Porsche, became quite familiar with this car for service and regular maintenance both before and after the restoration was completed. He was interested in buying it when he found out I was selling, but the timing wasn’t good for him. It was mid-pandemic and many were being careful with their discretionary spending. I don’t know, but suspect that extended to his customers, as well. He called me about a year later to ask if I still had the car and was disappointed to learn it had been sold. He subsequently told me, and has repeated to several other folks, that he regretted not buying it.

Rufus, I suggest with no snarkiness at all, that you might want to contact him if you’re really unhappy with the car. Mark knows the car well and certainly has the talent and resources to address any outstanding deficiencies. I spent over $120K on the purchase and restoration, fully knowing I would never get it back. I advertised it at $59,500 and sold it to you for $56,500. That still seems like a pretty good deal to me, even accounting for the unexpected warts. You should be OK financially, although I know that doesn’t address your frustration or disappointment.

- MR

[sixnotfour]

The End..

[mountainroads]

The End..

Maybe. More like Paul Harvey's "And now for the rest of the story..."

As a somewhat tangential sidenote - I bought an early 911 a couple of years ago and wanted the PPI done by the shop close to the seller, since they were familiar with the car. I trusted them to give me an objective report. They told me "Sorry, we don't do those anymore." When asked why, they responded "liability concerns". Several recent high-profile cases (Jerry Seinfeld, etc.) had convinced them that the income from doing the work wasn't worth the risk of missing something and then having the buyer come after them. Now I better understand their concern.

- MR