Calafornia Road Charge Options

[nathanxnathan]

Hard to swallow that it would be the same

I think what they are really trying to say here is that anything under 10k pounds is peanuts compared to a loaded semi truck (40k-80k).
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/idea.gif)

That makes some sense. Here's a chart to sort of back that up — 18,000 lb big rig compared to an 8500 lb Hummer — does 20x as much damage.



My VW Golf is about 3000 lb though, according to the same chart is doing a 64th the damage of the Hummer.

So I propose I pay $1 road charge, hummer guy pays $65, big rig company pays $1213 — per 10,000 miles. Seems fair?

[Montreal914]

NARP 914 fits into the "smart car" category. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Kind of obvious! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sunglasses.gif)

[wonkipop]

its illegal for a cat to be outside the house --- period.

Wow, not here, they're all over the place. My neighborhood keeps them inside at night or the coyotes and the great horned owls get them.

yeah - feral cats that have escaped domesticity are devastating to australian marscupial wildlife. and native birds. the cat bans came in probably 25 years ago.
its had quite an effect in the city. alley cats have completely disappeared.
but they are still out there in the bush.

you still see cats sitting inside at windows sills staring forlornly out at birds hopping around in gardens (Thinkin their thoughts of you know what (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) ),

[bkrantz]

Hard to swallow that it would be the same

I think what they are really trying to say here is that anything under 10k pounds is peanuts compared to a loaded semi truck (40k-80k).
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/idea.gif)

That makes some sense. Here's a chart to sort of back that up — 18,000 lb big rig compared to an 8500 lb Hummer — does 20x as much damage.



My VW Golf is about 3000 lb though, according to the same chart is doing a 64th the damage of the Hummer.

So I propose I pay $1 road charge, hummer guy pays $65, big rig company pays $1213 — per 10,000 miles. Seems fair?

The "big rig" is not even close. A loaded 18-wheeler weighs 80,000 lbs or 40 tons. You need to recalculate impact.

[Chris914n6]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif) What next, sidewalk and pedestrians? Dogs?

Concrete is expensive these days. Put it in the air and it costs $40 million

(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/uploads_offsite/sawebfilesprod001.blob.core.windows.net-431-1717462642.1.jpg)

[technicalninja]

I think they are talking about a tractor in the semi.

Lots about the list look bogus to me.

The impact of a Smart car versus a Prius seems un-believable. The Pruis does 9 times the damage and a simple Rav4 is twice as bad as the Prius.

Sounds like the author has a soft spot for Smart Cars.
If you get a chance drive one!
The first time it shifts you'll swear something broke in the drive train.
Be careful when following one. It completely drops all power before the shift and delays power return far longer than necessary. The car "nose dives" and decelerates between shifts.
Feels BROKEN when that happens.

Years ago, I banned all French cars from my bays, Peugeots and Renaults are impossible to fix and parts are rare and often don't work when brand new. The Smart Car is made in France.
Some of them have 3 bolt wheels...

"Not a Car" in my book.
There was an EV model.
One review stated, "It was so quiet that you could hear your regret!"

Who-ever came up with the chart appears to know little about cars...
They also have NO idea what a loaded semi rig weighs.

[nathanxnathan]

I think they are talking about a tractor in the semi.

Lots about the list look bogus to me.

The impact of a Smart car versus a Prius seems un-believable. The Pruis does 9 times the damage and a simple Rav4 is twice as bad as the Prius.

Sounds like the author has a soft spot for Smart Cars.
If you get a chance drive one!
The first time it shifts you'll swear something broke in the drive train.
Be careful when following one. It completely drops all power before the shift and delays power return far longer than necessary. The car "nose dives" and decelerates between shifts.
Feels BROKEN when that happens.

Years ago, I banned all French cars from my bays, Peugeots and Renaults are impossible to fix and parts are rare and often don't work when brand new. The Smart Car is made in France.
Some of them have 3 bolt wheels...

"Not a Car" in my book.
There was an EV model.
One review stated, "It was so quiet that you could hear your regret!"

Who-ever came up with the chart appears to know little about cars...
They also have NO idea what a loaded semi rig weighs.

It's not my chart. I got it from:

https://www.profitgreenly.com/p/road-damage-fees-and-profit

who got it from here:

https://streets.mn/2016/07/07/chart-of-the-...-damage-levels/

In the first link the author actually corrects the big rig number, and explains that the math was wrong on account of the number of axles. The chart is based on:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AASHO_Road_Test

which I only skimmed. It's claiming that total weight divided by number of axles is where it's at to calculate damage, which seems logical. The weights check out at least. Smart Cars weighed about 1800 lb, base prius weighs about 3000, average car in the US weighs about 4300, so not far off there.

I didn't do the math, but like the first article I linked says, the damage goes up exponentially — conservatively estimating to square, up to the 4th power — somewhere between is probably the reality.

[dhuckabay]

The joke we have in South Africa is that the smart cars were banned from the parks. Seems like the elephants were trying to mate with them.

I have a picture of a tourist in a rental Golf. Elephant was sitting on the hood. Can bet that was a fight at return

I think they are talking about a tractor in the semi.

Lots about the list look bogus to me.

The impact of a Smart car versus a Prius seems un-believable. The Pruis does 9 times the damage and a simple Rav4 is twice as bad as the Prius.

Sounds like the author has a soft spot for Smart Cars.
If you get a chance drive one!
The first time it shifts you'll swear something broke in the drive train.
Be careful when following one. It completely drops all power before the shift and delays power return far longer than necessary. The car "nose dives" and decelerates between shifts.
Feels BROKEN when that happens.

Years ago, I banned all French cars from my bays, Peugeots and Renaults are impossible to fix and parts are rare and often don't work when brand new. The Smart Car is made in France.
Some of them have 3 bolt wheels...

"Not a Car" in my book.
There was an EV model.
One review stated, "It was so quiet that you could hear your regret!"

Who-ever came up with the chart appears to know little about cars...
They also have NO idea what a loaded semi rig weighs.

[mate914]

Hard to swallow that it would be the same

I think what they are really trying to say here is that anything under 10k pounds is peanuts compared to a loaded semi truck (40k-80k).
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/idea.gif)

That makes some sense. Here's a chart to sort of back that up — 18,000 lb big rig compared to an 8500 lb Hummer — does 20x as much damage.



My VW Golf is about 3000 lb though, according to the same chart is doing a 64th the damage of the Hummer.

So I propose I pay $1 road charge, hummer guy pays $65, big rig company pays $1213 — per 10,000 miles. Seems fair?

Have any idea what that would do to your price for groceries?
Matt

[Shivers]

Yesterday I paid 5.05 a gallon and now they want to add .30 a mile. Ouch

[Spoke]

There was a pilot program in the Infrastructure bill in 2021 to charge everyone by how many miles they drove. It was put in place since cars are now powered by an energy source other than gas. Taxing gas basically taxed folks on miles driven. If the Govt goes to a per mile tax then some of the gas tax should be removed.

[VaccaRabite]

Have any idea what that would do to your price for groceries?
Matt

IF (and this is a BIG IF) a use fee is done correctly, truckers should be paying no more in the use tax then they are in fuel tax.

But that is assuming that the fuel taxes are REMOVED, and its not just an additional tax.

Zach

[Craigers17]

While this might be a step in the right direction to share the burden between EV's and ICE vehicles, the burden can't be put overwhelmingly on the "Semi's" just because of weight. I agree that they are responsible for the most wear and tear done to the roads, but they also deliver the lionshare of the goods, like groceries, construction materials, etc. so that every other industry can thrive. As mentioned above, if their industry is gouged by both gas tax and mileage tax, everything we buy will go up exponentially. Just my 2 cents.....and I have no skin in the game for the trucking industry.

[VaccaRabite]

The issue that I see are the people (and long haul truckers) that spend as much if not more time driving outside their state as in it.

In my case, I live on the border of 2 states (Maryland and Pennsylvania.) PA is already getting screwed for me as MD gas is about 25cents cheaper a gallon, so I fill up there.

If MD sets a use tax: 1) I start paying way less in fuel and 2) MD is getting no recovery from the wear and tear I am putting on their roads. I tend to drive more in MD then PA.

If PA were to set a use tax, I probably start filling up in PA as the gas price should fall below MD - so a benefit to the gas stations in my home area. But then I get hammered with all the miles I drive in MD and other states.

I will laugh at any fool who expects to put a GPS in my car to track my mileage for the state...

Zach

[nathanxnathan]

My work is 25 miles from where I live, so driving to and from 4 days a week (I work from home 1 day a week), that's 200 miles a week (10,400 miles per year). I average 45 mpg so 4.44 gallons of gas/week @ $5/gallon that's $22.22 per week. If they want to charge $0.30/mile that's $60/week — almost 3x what I pay for gas already on top of gas price.

Like Spoke says, some (or all) of the gas tax should be removed, but $.30/mile seems like a lot.

California taxes $0.80/gallon, federal gov taxes ~ $0.20/gallon so say they remove it all (unlikely) so $4/gallon. 200 miles/45mpg = 4.44 gallons/week @ $4/gallon = $17.76/week in fuel, but still $60 road charge = $77.76. I could buy 15.55 gallons of gas @ $5/gal with that — more than 3x as much.

More math, I'm thinking I'd have to be getting 15.76 mpg presently to do that badly. Average mpg for normal suv driving people is probably 25 so .30 seems again like a lot.

[mrholland2]

There was a pilot program in the Infrastructure bill in 2021 to charge everyone by how many miles they drove. It was put in place since cars are now powered by an energy source other than gas. Taxing gas basically taxed folks on miles driven. If the Govt goes to a per mile tax then some of the gas tax should be removed.

Here here!!

The question would then be-what about non-residents of whatever state you are in?

Continue with fuel taxes at the current level and somehow use that to offset your mileage fee?

Let me get my abacus.

[rhodyguy]

I don’t know about where you guys live, but studded tires tear the roads up something fierce. And folks get to run them for months out of the year. Never seeing a bit of snow on the roads.

I don’t know how people put up with commute drive times. Now, the morning commute to points north, or south, around 30 to 40 miles takes as long as driving to Portland Oregon used to take me.

I think the used electric car market will be in the toilet within 5 years. Worthless vehicles. Pretty gd expensive when new. Then there’s the whole electricity generation thing. Burning coal to charge cars?

[ClayPerrine]

Have any idea what that would do to your price for groceries?
Matt

IF (and this is a BIG IF) a use fee is done correctly, truckers should be paying no more in the use tax then they are in fuel tax.

But that is assuming that the fuel taxes are REMOVED, and its not just an additional tax.

Zach

I normally refrain from commenting on anything even vaguely political, for obvious reasons.

But I will say this. No politician, left or right, will remove any tax that gets the state/federal government money. In 1964, the feds implemented the "chicken tax" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicken_tax) on trucks because France and West Germany put a tax on imported US Chicken. It is still in effect. It's stupid, and deprives the US of some really nice light trucks.


So dreaming about getting the fuel taxes removed is a pipe dream. They will just add road use taxes to existing tax infrastructure.

[VaccaRabite]

Have any idea what that would do to your price for groceries?
Matt

IF (and this is a BIG IF) a use fee is done correctly, truckers should be paying no more in the use tax then they are in fuel tax.

But that is assuming that the fuel taxes are REMOVED, and its not just an additional tax.

Zach

I normally refrain from commenting on anything even vaguely political, for obvious reasons.

But I will say this. No politician, left or right, will remove any tax that gets the state/federal government money. In 1964, the feds implemented the "chicken tax" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicken_tax) on trucks because France and West Germany put a tax on imported US Chicken. It is still in effect. It's stupid, and deprives the US of some really nice light trucks.


So dreaming about getting the fuel taxes removed is a pipe dream. They will just add road use taxes to existing tax infrastructure.

In that case Nate would be spot on correct.
The new tax would be highly regressive double taxation, that would hopefully fail in the court case that was likely set to file the second the law took effect.

Zach

[technicalninja]

No politician, left or right, will remove any tax that gets the state/federal government money.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif)

I did notice folks are heading the advice of SirAndy and I haven't noticed a political drift yet.

I try to stay "non-political" in all of my posts.

It's all about the cars anyways...