Calafornia Road Charge Options

[flipb]

The double-taxation scenario is a pretty distant hypothetical right now. The states that have found a way to supplement gas tax by targeting alternative fuel vehicles are -- so far -- keeping those two things exclusive. I'm not aware of any state that's proposing to implement a flat road-use tax that includes gasoline (non-hybrid) vehicles. Not saying it won't happen, but I don't think it's a risk at least in the next 5+ years.

Of course if I'm wrong, you can all remind me of this post when the time comes.

Honestly, the gas tax has worked pretty well. It creates incentives to drive more efficient vehicles while providing a dedicated funding stream for highway infrastructure. As alt-fuel vehicles become a substantial portion of the roadgoing mix, there's a gap being created and the stopgaps are a bit clunky for now.

[Amphicar770]

An EV tax is simply an opening play towards moving to the alternative form of road tax many states want to implement. The cant get there all at once, so they will do so incrementally. The next logical step will be to tax all vehicles based on mileage and weight.

As the saying goes, "be careful what you wish for, you just might get it".

[JeffBowlsby]

The solution seems easy, just figure out how much extra to charge for EV usage and add that to the kWh rate at EV chargers (even home chargers) sim to how gasoline is taxed. So regardless of what fuel you need you pay the piper to dance.

[Tbrown4x4]

I’m a little late here, but WA charged me a “weight fee” on my 1979 Yamaha XS1100. I always that was unfair. Especially when the riding season is a little shorter .

[Front yard mechanic]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/driving-girl.gif)

[KELTY360]

In New Mexico they charge you on the amount of guys you haul in the back of your truck

At least they don’t tax the number of guns in the gun rack.

[mate914]

In New Mexico they charge you on the amount of guys you haul in the back of your truck

At least they don’t tax the number of guns in the gun rack.

How does that change anything in this topic?
Matt

[flipb]

The solution seems easy, just figure out how much extra to charge for EV usage and add that to the kWh rate at EV chargers (even home chargers) sim to how gasoline is taxed. So regardless of what fuel you need you pay the piper to dance.

I can't see a practical way for this to work. EV owners who charge at home simply plug into a circuit that's part of their main electric panel. There's no metering for individual circuits. And there's no rule that says your EV must charge on a dedicated circuit. You could share a 240v circuit that's also used by a clothes dryer or a 120v that includes several other lights/appliances/etc. Plus, there's pretty heavy overlap between homes that generate their own electricity via solar and those that have plug-in vehicles; would be difficult to tax the energy they're generating themselves -- some might even be off-grid.

In my area we're starting to see the proliferation of HOT lanes (Free for HOV or pay a toll to use solo). I kinda hate seeing so much infrastructure becoming toll-for-use but I guess that is another model.

[mepstein]

The issue that I see are the people (and long haul truckers) that spend as much if not more time driving outside their state as in it.

In my case, I live on the border of 2 states (Maryland and Pennsylvania.) PA is already getting screwed for me as MD gas is about 25cents cheaper a gallon, so I fill up there.

If MD sets a use tax: 1) I start paying way less in fuel and 2) MD is getting no recovery from the wear and tear I am putting on their roads. I tend to drive more in MD then PA.

If PA were to set a use tax, I probably start filling up in PA as the gas price should fall below MD - so a benefit to the gas stations in my home area. But then I get hammered with all the miles I drive in MD and other states.

I will laugh at any fool who expects to put a GPS in my car to track my mileage for the state...

Zach

I agree, it gets tricky to think how to implement it on people who live in one state but mostly drive in another. And what about my daughter who drives one of my cars registered in PA but she’s in NY. She can’t register it in NY because it’s my car, not hers. She shouldn’t have to pay a PA mileage tax because the car isn’t in PA. Can’t really base it on an average, my cousin only drives a couple 100 miles a year, I drive about 20k. What if I charge my car at work in another state or charge at a friends house. Who pays the tax? I’m glad I’m not the one trying to figure it out.

[technicalninja]

I've got a way that it will work. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/devil.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/devil.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/devil.gif)

Have the car broadcast it's GPS data, speed data, interior camera data, everything under the sun.

Set mileage costs via actual data...

You can also issue traffic tickets this way as well.

Insurance rates could be slaved to this.

Install "BIG BROTHER" and put him to use!

Sounds like science fiction?

Ford recently tried to patent crap like this. In Ford case they also wanted to implement auto recovery (for non-payment) and auto recycling. Your car drives away under its own power to wherever Ford decides that is best.

It's going to happen anyways...

I wonder what the politicians will do about old cars that don't have this stuff installed at the factory?

Probably ban them...

[mepstein]

Taxing gasoline at a gas station makes sense. It’s the only place it’s dispensed. Electricity is a different ballgame. Many sources, many uses, tracking only electricity for vehicle use will be difficult.

A gps in a vehicle, good luck with that. Especially older vehicles.

Ill be interested to see how it gets implemented. Either at the vehicle level or the power supply, it sounds like a challenge

[JeffBowlsby]

The solution seems easy, just figure out how much extra to charge for EV usage and add that to the kWh rate at EV chargers (even home chargers) sim to how gasoline is taxed. So regardless of what fuel you need you pay the piper to dance.

I can't see a practical way for this to work. EV owners who charge at home simply plug into a circuit that's part of their main electric panel. There's no metering for individual circuits. And there's no rule that says your EV must charge on a dedicated circuit. You could share a 240v circuit that's also used by a clothes dryer or a 120v that includes several other lights/appliances/etc. Plus, there's pretty heavy overlap between homes that generate their own electricity via solar and those that have plug-in vehicles; would be difficult to tax the energy they're generating themselves -- some might even be off-grid.

In my area we're starting to see the proliferation of HOT lanes (Free for HOV or pay a toll to use solo). I kinda hate seeing so much infrastructure becoming toll-for-use but I guess that is another model.

Those are technicalities from today’s perspective. Solve it conceptually then figure out the details. A dedicated meter for the car, special connection hardware…whatever is needed. Our mamas dint raise no fools…there will always be a work around and corruption.

[mrholland2]

My work is 25 miles from where I live, so driving to and from 4 days a week (I work from home 1 day a week), that's 200 miles a week (10,400 miles per year). I average 45 mpg so 4.44 gallons of gas/week @ $5/gallon that's $22.22 per week. If they want to charge $0.30/mile that's $60/week — almost 3x what I pay for gas already on top of gas price.

Like Spoke says, some (or all) of the gas tax should be removed, but $.30/mile seems like a lot.

California taxes $0.80/gallon, federal gov taxes ~ $0.20/gallon so say they remove it all (unlikely) so $4/gallon. 200 miles/45mpg = 4.44 gallons/week @ $4/gallon = $17.76/week in fuel, but still $60 road charge = $77.76. I could buy 15.55 gallons of gas @ $5/gal with that — more than 3x as much.

More math, I'm thinking I'd have to be getting 15.76 mpg presently to do that badly. Average mpg for normal suv driving people is probably 25 so .30 seems again like a lot.

So more math: If the total taxes are roughly $1.00 per gallon and they want to charge a use fee to EVs that equals what a 25mpg car pays, what should the yearly fee be for the average 11,000 miles? So, it's $1.00 per twenty five miles. That would be 440 gallons annually for a 25mpg car so it should be 440 bucks for the EVs annually. That is plain and simple. Will some people over pay? Yes. Will some people under pay? Yes. That is the only thing that needs to be solved.

Leave the fuel taxes as is and massage the formula and exceptions immediately above.

A possible solution:
1. Pay the $440 with your EV registration
2 Have the car send the annual mileage to the DMV/Tax people.
3. Receive credit for your next registration if you overpaid or a bill in the mail if you underpaid (or additional registration fees).

Let's face it, $440 isn't that much over the course of a year. If you drive your EV 22,000 miles, you owe $880 and so forth. If you only drive 4000 miles a year like my brother, you would only owe $160.

Yes? No? Insane? Rose colored glasses? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sunglasses.gif)

[technicalninja]

Too logical!

Only works in California as many states have different fuel taxes.

[Chris914n6]

EVs are new enough they already have location data (OTA updates and NAV) so charge location can be saved and transmitted. The DMV downloads the data and calculates use fees per location, so like a smog check to pay taxes.

Makes selling a car more complicated as the seller will need to be billed for their use between payments. But not impossible as smog checks are immediately sent to the DMV database already. Could be as easy as a screen that pops up with QR codes for buyer and seller.

But we already have eMPG ratings so that with mileage can be taxed similar to gas.

[Justinp71]

Would have to do it like they charge for insurance in CA. If you have an EV registered to your house you have to pay a minimum tax based on driving some minimum 12,000 miles a year. If you drive less than that you have to somehow prove it and send documentation. Would be a crappy system though.

It will probably get added to state taxes at some point I imagine. They will have to use DMV records or something to impose.

[wonkipop]

Taxing gasoline at a gas station makes sense. It’s the only place it’s dispensed. Electricity is a different ballgame. Many sources, many uses, tracking only electricity for vehicle use will be difficult.

A gps in a vehicle, good luck with that. Especially older vehicles.

Ill be interested to see how it gets implemented. Either at the vehicle level or the power supply, it sounds like a challenge

it sure is a challenge to implement it.
add to that cocktail variable electricity pricing depending on peak or off peak pricing scenarios and it can't really be a simple percentage levy like fuel.

down here they settled on odometer declarations as the only feasible method.
of course that raises the notion of tampering. depending on the software in newer EVs it might be possible for them incorporate a provision to simply upload mileage automatically at intervals.

at present government seems to be walking a knife edge between incentivising EVs and disincentivising ICE. happy to do nothing. and still not enough EVs on road to make a significant percentage for it to be a real problem. but it is a free ride at the moment.
and given the condition of some of our roads down here and the failures around maintenance of roads, its staring to be a lightning rod.

[SirAndy]

EVs are new enough they already have location data (OTA updates and NAV) so charge location can be saved and transmitted.

Not just EVs ...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7kUJhWUm3JA

[Montreal914]

Very interesting... How can we know if an older car is "connected"? As soon as there is a GPS in the dash as part of the car's standard equipment? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif)

[SirAndy]

Very interesting... How can we know if an older car is "connected"? As soon as there is a GPS in the dash as part of the car's standard equipment? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif)

"Connected" means it has a way of communicating with the rest of the world.
Wireless, modem, 4g/5g phone/sim, bluetooth etc.

Some 10 years ago i worked for a company that made small devices that plug into your ODB2 port and record all sorts of data from your car, including GPS, and used a small cellular modem (think tiny phone) to send all that data back to a centralized server once a minute.
All packaged in a box about the size of a key-fob.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/type.gif)