Ball joint/strut wedge pin, Pulling through hole Options

[rjames]

So I got one of the ball joints installed into the strut housing without any issues. Went to do the other one and got the wedge pin tapped almost flush and then went to tighten the nut and got to 20 foot pounds (spec is 33) before the wedge pin started pulling through. WTF?!
Is it safe to leave it like this? This is a wedge pin from Porsche.

[mepstein]

Is the nut bottoming out on the pin. I would do some measurements before I ran it, as is.
Are you sure about the torque spec. I remember something around 18.

[friethmiller]

Watch out! The Haynes manual has a typo in the torque specs for this bolt. I think it says 40 ft/lbs but it’s more like 18. You can test this out, if you’d like. The nut will strip the threads on the bolt at about 30-35 ft/lbs. At which point the bolt won’t come out or tighten, forcing you to use a nut buster to remove it with a lot of cursing. Ask me how I know! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/mad.gif)

[rjames]

I was able to tighten the other strut to 33 foot lbs without any issues. Maybe I just got lucky though. 33 is what the Haynes book says and what I read on other threads here in my search.
That said, I found a post on Pelican saying that the 33 spec was for the earlier bolt style and the late style is 16 ft lbs, and that Haynes never updated the book. Fuch!

Is the nut bottoming out on the pin. I would do some measurements before I ran it, as is.

@mepstein I can’t see the threads without loosening the nut, which I’m kind of afraid to do at this point. If I back off the nut, I worry that I run the risk of the wedge pin being loose going forward. Maybe the ball joint is compromised now, too?

I checked the diameter of the hole that the pin goes through and it’s now wider than the top of my old wedge pins, so I’ve clearly altered the strut.

I see 3 choices at the moment:
- Leave it as is
- Loosen the nut, pound the pin back out which will likely be very easy to do, and try to tighten to 16 (I’m worried the pin will loose given the hole sequenced now)
- Get a new strut.

Is JB Weld an option here?

[Shivers]

From a thread at the bird board "(16 ft-lbs according to Bentley's) "

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911...edge-bolts.html

[technicalninja]

The pin is compromised, nothing else.

I'd replace BOTH pins (and nuts!), torque to 16 and use blue loctite on the threaded portion only.

NO WAY I'd run the over torqued pins!

A failure at this point could cost the entire car and you!!!!!!

Loose a pin at 100mph and you won't be able to tell what brand the "ball of metal" is in the junkyard...

[friethmiller]

The pin is compromised, nothing else.

I'd replace BOTH pins (and nuts!), torque to 16 and use blue loctite on the threaded portion only.

NO WAY I'd run the over torqued pins!

A failure at this point could cost the entire car and you!!!!!!

Loose a pin at 100mph and you won't be able to tell what brand the "ball of metal" is in the junkyard...

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif)

[rjames]

The pin is compromised, nothing else.

I'd replace BOTH pins (and nuts!), torque to 16 and use blue loctite on the threaded portion only.

NO WAY I'd run the over torqued pins!

A failure at this point could cost the entire car and you!!!!!!

Loose a pin at 100mph and you won't be able to tell what brand the "ball of metal" is in the junkyard...

I hear you, but..
If I use blue locktight then I have to reduce the torque by 20%.
The wedge pin above is only torqued to 20 ft lbs. I couldn't get to 33 because that's the point where I noticed the pin pulling through. I measured against the old pin and verified that the threads didn't bottom out. Do you still think that's enough to compromise the pin? Given that the correct spec is seemingly only in one thread on the bird site, others must have used 33 ' lbs successfully (was ok on my other strut.)

Isn't the strut toast now because the hole has been widened?

I must have read 10 different install threads prepping for this. How has the error in the manual not been pointed out here before?! I'm so F'ing pissed off right now.

[technicalninja]

The possibility of the resultant ball of metal (leaking blood!) would make me automatically replace exactly what I suggested.

If you were working for me and you did this, we'd have words, but it wouldn't count against you the first time.

Do the same thing twice and you'd be TOAST!

The ONLY thing that is important is the rubber stays against the road and the brakes work...

It is a luxury if it starts and moves under its own power.

It just means you don't have to push it around the shop!

16lbs and blue loctite will work fine!

Don't overthink this!

Don't EVER fully trust ANY service manual. Shit like you did here could kill you (or your customer if you're doing this crap for a living).

33lbs is a 10mm bolt IMO!

33lbs is a bunch for smaller stuff.

I would have researched and posted BIGTIME before I took something that small that high in that critical a location.

[technicalninja]

I disagreed with your method of ball joint to strut and then ball joint to control arm.

I do it opposite, the old school way.

I wasn't completely sure if it mattered AND your method MIGHT be better as the ball joint tightening procedure may be easier if it's all assembled.
You would eliminate the "floppy" using your method.

It might be a "better" way, so I was just watching how it went and what others posted.

So, I'm OK with alternate mounting procedures.

I'm just not OK when I see something that might hurt you down the road...

[rjames]

I disagreed with your method of ball joint to strut and then ball joint to control arm.

I do it opposite, the old school way.

I wasn't completely sure if it mattered AND your method MIGHT be better as the ball joint tightening procedure may be easier if it's all assembled.
You would eliminate the "floppy" using your method.

It might be a "better" way, so I was just watching how it went and what others posted.

So, I'm OK with alternate mounting procedures.

I'm just not OK when I see something that might hurt you down the road...

I went that route for a few reasons: I wasn't sure how much hammering I'd have to do to get the wedge pin seated and didn't want that force transferred to the bolts that secure control arms to the chassis and the new ball joint. The Koni instructions say to add antifreeze to the strut housing and given that the later strut housings aren't sealed (there's a hole at the bottom) trying to pour antifreeze while it's mounted to the control arm sounded like a recipe for disaster. Lastly, the strut gland nut would be easier to tighten on the bench.


OK, I just ordered new wedge pins and nuts. I just hope the strut isn't compromised such that the wedge pin doesn't pull through even when using the correct torque value. There must be a bunch of other people with over-torqued wedge pins since 33 ft lbs is stated in several threads on this site and in the Hayes manual.

@iankarr you might want to add the torque spec to video.

I'll post an update when the pins arrive and a give it another go. Should the wedgepin be greased? Other threads I read said to grease it before install, but I'm inclined to install them dry the 2nd time around to give a tighter fit given the circumstances.

[Superhawk996]

By design the wedge pin cannot pull through though it can sit under flush to the strut body as your picture shows.

[rjames]

By design the wedge pin cannot pull through though it can sit under flush to the strut body as your picture shows.

This makes me feel better. Thanks!

[sixnotfour]

correct ball joint ? v notch versus radius groove..

[rjames]

correct ball joint ? v notch versus radius groove..

Yes, the ball joints have the v notch.

[Shivers]

I'll post an update when the pins arrive and a give it another go. Should the wedgepin be greased? Other threads I read said to grease it before install, but I'm inclined to install them dry the 2nd time around to give a tighter fit given the circumstances.

Pelican:


"It is very important to grease the bore of the strut for the ball joint and the bore for the wedge-pin. All this needs liberal amount of grease to prevent corrosion.

Remember, the washer under the wedge-pin nut is a hardened Porsche part, not a plain M8 washer. The nut is a steel lock-nut "

[rhodyguy]

Do not attempt to draw the wedge pin in with the nut. Disaster to follow. Clean and lube hole, drive pin home, tighten nut with your torque wrench. The wedge pin breaks easily.

[rjames]

Do not attempt to draw the wedge pin in with the nut. Disaster to follow. Clean and lube hole, drive pin home, tighten nut with your torque wrench. The wedge pin breaks easily.

Yup, all the posts I've read (many) have covered that and that's exactly what I did. The problem was the incorrect torque value posted in numerous places.

I don't plan on using grease on the pin next time because only 20' pounds pulled it in too far. I'm less concerned about getting them out again as I am about getting them seated properly and allowing them to do their job.
I'll use grease on the ball joint end to keep it from adhering to the pin and the strut though.

[technicalninja]

The Koni instructions say to add antifreeze to the strut housing and given that the later strut housings aren't sealed (there's a hole at the bottom) trying to pour antifreeze while it's mounted to the control arm sounded like a recipe for disaster. Lastly, the strut gland nut would be easier to tighten on the bench.

Koni is most likely having you fill the strut housing to increase heat transfer from the insert to the housing.
I've done this multiple times with Z cars, but I used the original hydraulic oil that was already in the strut. I'd carefully drain that crap into a container for re-use.
I called it "Japanese fish oil strut juice" because that is the way it smelled.

I WOULD NOT put anything into an outer strut housing that was not fully sealed!

I cannot say I've seen an outer housing that wasn't sealed at the bottom.
I will be looking at mine closely when I put inserts in per your comments.

I am a HUGE believer in having the heat transfer fluid between the insert and the housing.

But, if it can drain out, it will.

Make a mess of your freshly painted suspension pieces...

One final note regarding antifreeze. It has very little surface tension and can flow through cracks that nothing else will.

Have an old, cracked coffee mug that works fine for coffee, it probably won't hold antifreeze.
Antifreeze is an excellent test fluid for crack detection because of this feature.

It will leak out of the strut housing easier than almost everything else.

[914sgofast2]

Are you sure that the hole in the strut housing which accepts the pin isn't oval-ed out or oversized for some reason?