2.0 Head Gasket delete? Options

[ClayPerrine]

(& blessed by the manufacture)

I still want to see the Porsche documentation that says to do this. The only thing I can find is a VW tech bulletin that does NOT cover a 914/4 engine.

[emerygt350]

I've read where it's a good idea to remove the head gaskets and re-assemble without them. Something about, they crush and cause an issue. Is there anything else you need to do or change, in their place? Like a different head design?
Thanks

Here is an old thread with the bulletin and some pretty good points made.

http://www.914world.com/bbs2/lofiversion/i...hp?t215407.html

[emerygt350]

Dbl post

[ClayPerrine]

I've read where it's a good idea to remove the head gaskets and re-assemble without them. Something about, they crush and cause an issue. Is there anything else you need to do or change, in their place? Like a different head design?
Thanks

Here is an old thread with the bulletin and some pretty good points made.

http://www.914world.com/bbs2/lofiversion/i...hp?t215407.html

Still having the same argument over a decade later.

Will this bullshit misinformation NEVER end? The Tech document refers ONLY to the revised 2 liter heads. Period. Perpetuating misinformation does no one any good.

The Cap'n

The listed thread makes the same point I have been trying to make. The tech bulletin does not apply to the 914 engine. The tech bulletin applies to the engines with the revised head design.

The key words here are "REVISED HEAD DESIGN". The 914 motor does not have it.

[914werke]

I've read where it's a good idea to remove the head gaskets and re-assemble without them. Something about, they crush and cause an issue. Is there anything else you need to do or change, in their place? Like a different head design? Thanks

Here is an old thread with the bulletin and some pretty good points made.
http://www.914world.com/bbs2/lofiversion/i...hp?t215407.html

Still having the same argument over a decade later.

Will this bullshit misinformation NEVER end? The Tech document refers ONLY to the revised 2 liter heads. Period. Perpetuating misinformation does no one any good. The Cap'n

The listed thread makes the same point I have been trying to make. The tech bulletin does not apply to the 914 engine. The tech bulletin applies to the engines with the revised head design. The key words here are "REVISED HEAD DESIGN". The 914 motor does not have it.

Does not have what? with all due respect to John.

Sorry Clay but you are making a specious argument. First no one will argue (I think (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blink.gif)) that the T4 motor is a VW design & that Porsche's contributions to it related to the 914 centered around the 2.0L & redesign of its heads.

Arguing the VW bulletin cited isn't applicable may be splitting the finest of hairs.

Perhaps you can define what you think the specific features are that differentiate the "Porsche" vs the "Volkswagen" versions described in that bulletin, and how they are germane to this discussion about the use of compressible multilayer metal head gaskets?

[914werke]

(& blessed by the manufacture)

I still want to see the Porsche documentation that says to do this. The only thing I can find is a VW tech bulletin that does NOT cover a 914/4 engine.

My understanding is that VW manufactured the T4 engine not Porsche?

[ClayPerrine]

Look. . this is real simple. Do what you want with your engine.

But please READ the tech bulletin in detail. It specifically mentions only the later Vanagon engines by type. It does not apply to ALL type IV engines.

[Nogoodwithusernames]

Pardon my lack of knowledge in this area, but what specifically changed with the later T4 heads? Obviously there are some differences between the 1.7, 1.8, VW 2.0 and 914 2.0 heads but I did not realize there were changes from earlier to later versions.

In my vast knowledge and experience rebuilding VW motors (a whopping 1 T1 motor and 1 T4 motor (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif) ) I have taken this to be ubiquitous to take the head gaskets out on all T4 heads. Based on the VW bulletin and Jake Raby's suggestion. I have heard of doing metal o-rings with a groove cut in either the cylinder or head for it for super high performance engines. That is a whole different ball game though.

I am not trying to argue either way, but would like to learn more from both schools of thought. To my line of thinking, it would logically make sense that it would apply to all T4 motors. They are all basically the same, and how much of a difference can a head redesign really make? Perhaps though it is just the extra heat and load from the breadboxes on wheels that was the primary cause of the issue?

[mmichalik]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/popcorn[1].gif)

[930cabman]

Possible/probable the folks at Porsche never had a TSB eliminating the head gasket, but I am running with my own experience and that of Jake.

For any /4 I may/will build in the future I am not using a head gasket, but will make sure things at the cylinder/head connection is tight.

[thomasotten]

Not wanting to enter a debate that clearly needs an Ecumenical Council to resolve, I would point out the following:

The document, written in 1990 is stating that these changes have been introduced as improvements to their remanufactured engine program. "The following improvements have been introduced as of remanufactured Engine number 89000". It is information applicable to a certain year range of Vanagons, but is silent on all other models. This doesn't mean that it is not applicable to other models with type 4 engines. But generally, it is not wise to offer recommendations on changes to other complex systems unless you are reasonably sure that the changes won't have some other effect not considered. Also, do we even know if, in 1990, there was a remanufactured 914 engine program?

I would not say that this bulletin was meant for all type 4 engines, but only for their remanufactured engines. That does not mean, however, that the changes may not be applicable to your particular engine.

[Al Meredith]

I stayed up last night reading a bunch of articles about type 4 rebuilds by Jake Raby and FAT and KB pistons and Mark Stephens,Len Hoffemen in Dune Buggies and HOT VW and VW TRENDS . Everything I read does not use head gaskets in their rebuilds. All are very clear about a .040 clearance . I have built several 2056 with carbs and have not used head gaskets . I have a 2056 in my 912E and a 1911 in my 914 all at 9 to 1 CR and never had a problem in 15 years of use . We need Jake to comment on this subject.

[914werke]

BTW #5 should be performed on ALL T4 builds (using stock rods) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/aktion035.gif) ... IMO

Now back to the argument about head gaskets (IMG:style_emoticons/default/happy11.gif)

[930cabman]

BTW #5 should be performed on ALL T4 builds (using stock rods) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/aktion035.gif) ... IMO

Now back to the argument about head gaskets (IMG:style_emoticons/default/happy11.gif)

I was unaware of this modification and missed it on my last 2056 build. The reasoning is to cool the underside of the pistons?

IIRC Jake has spoken with regards to the use/non use of head gaskets

For me, they go in the recycle bin

[914werke]

correct. Poor mans oil squirter!

[Jake Raby]

I stayed up last night reading a bunch of articles about type 4 rebuilds by Jake Raby and FAT and KB pistons and Mark Stephens,Len Hoffemen in Dune Buggies and HOT VW and VW TRENDS . Everything I read does not use head gaskets in their rebuilds. All are very clear about a .040 clearance . I have built several 2056 with carbs and have not used head gaskets . I have a 2056 in my 912E and a 1911 in my 914 all at 9 to 1 CR and never had a problem in 15 years of use . We need Jake to comment on this subject.

The only time to use the factory T4 head gaskets- is NEVER.

[ClayPerrine]

I stayed up last night reading a bunch of articles about type 4 rebuilds by Jake Raby and FAT and KB pistons and Mark Stephens,Len Hoffemen in Dune Buggies and HOT VW and VW TRENDS . Everything I read does not use head gaskets in their rebuilds. All are very clear about a .040 clearance . I have built several 2056 with carbs and have not used head gaskets . I have a 2056 in my 912E and a 1911 in my 914 all at 9 to 1 CR and never had a problem in 15 years of use . We need Jake to comment on this subject.

The only time to use the factory T4 head gaskets- is NEVER.

I disagree. If you look at that tech bulletin, it clearly says "These changes effect Engine codes: GD, GE,CV."

None of those engines were used in the 914 at all.

Jake, you can do the required machine work to make it work without the gaskets. Ordinary guys working in their garage cannot do the precision work you do. They cannot machine heads with enough accuracy to be able to eliminate the gaskets. I would bet 98% of the professional machine shops out there cannot do the quality of work you do. The head gaskets are there to compensate for the less than dead nuts on machine work that comes from most shops.

[emerygt350]

I stayed up last night reading a bunch of articles about type 4 rebuilds by Jake Raby and FAT and KB pistons and Mark Stephens,Len Hoffemen in Dune Buggies and HOT VW and VW TRENDS . Everything I read does not use head gaskets in their rebuilds. All are very clear about a .040 clearance . I have built several 2056 with carbs and have not used head gaskets . I have a 2056 in my 912E and a 1911 in my 914 all at 9 to 1 CR and never had a problem in 15 years of use . We need Jake to comment on this subject.

The only time to use the factory T4 head gaskets- is NEVER.

I disagree. If you look at that tech bulletin, it clearly says "These changes effect Engine codes: GD, GE,CV."

None of those engines were used in the 914 at all.

Jake, you can do the required machine work to make it work without the gaskets. Ordinary guys working in their garage cannot do the precision work you do. They cannot machine heads with enough accuracy to be able to eliminate the gaskets. I would bet 98% of the professional machine shops out there cannot do the quality of work you do. The head gaskets are there to compensate for the less than dead nuts on machine work that comes from most shops.

Seems to work fine on my GA without them. I don't race seriously (autocross, occasional Watkins Glen) but I push the poor thing pretty hard (daily). Didn't even lap the heads to the sleeves. It's just another shim, just extra thick. 6000 miles so far in 3 months driving.