Wheel Alignment, Is this excessive camber? Options

[Superhawk996]

I suppose that learning to do it yourself will help you tell the professionals with access to lasers lifts and on line specifications how to actually do the work.

Yup - shame it has come to this in Merica 2024. Now they just turn a tech loose on a laser aligner and he has no idea what he’s actually doing.

I kid you not, when I was at the Chelsea Proving Grounds in mid 90s the Visualiner (time stamp 2:44) was still there and operational. It was great for a quick front end alignment. Sure there were more modern Hunter’s for 4 wheel alignments but the Visualiner was more than adequate for a quick alignment verification.

Bottom line:

Idiot on a laser alignment rig = (IMG:style_emoticons/default/stromberg.gif)
Skilled tech on a Visualiner = (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smilie_pokal.gif)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Qhs9m9WLho?si=b0yZd-oH1NNcekNz

[bkrantz]

Those numbers seem all over the place.

As for front camber, you need to see if either side has maxed out adjustment (toward the inside or outside). That also is affected by ride height (set with torsion bars).

Rear camber is too much for regular street driving. How many shims are on each side?

Again, start with setting ride height front and rear. And then (at a competent shop) set the alignment, with your driving goals in mind.

[JeffBowlsby]

Roger Kraus Racing is/was the go to local shop for P-car alignments. I took a couple of cars there for 4-wheel alignments in the past, their work was excellent. I think I heard the biz changed ownership a few years ago and who knows the caliber of the techs now.

Maybe consider taking the alignment specs to them and see if they will honorably redo their work to comply. I am sure they charge a premium.

[SirAndy]

Roger Kraus Racing is/was the go to local shop for P-car alignments. I took a couple of cars there for 4-wheel alignments in the past, their work was excellent. I think I heard the biz changed ownership a few years ago and who knows the caliber of the techs now.

Maybe consider taking the alignment specs to them and see if they will honorably redo their work to comply. I am sure they charge a premium.

Last time i was there (a year ago or so) Roger was still running the show but they didn't do an alignment on my car at the time because they were having a labor shortage and actively looking for qualified alignment techs.
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/idea.gif)

[fiacra]

Roger Kraus Racing is/was the go to local shop for P-car alignments. I took a couple of cars there for 4-wheel alignments in the past, their work was excellent. I think I heard the biz changed ownership a few years ago and who knows the caliber of the techs now.

Maybe consider taking the alignment specs to them and see if they will honorably redo their work to comply. I am sure they charge a premium.

Thanks Jeff. I value your opinion regarding the shop. Still the same owners. Roger was there, and his son Brandon was who I dealt with and who did the work. I will give them a call on Monday and see about going back with the car. Brandon did explain that he could not get the front end into spec. He had the left strut moved as far as he could. He suggested I could investigate getting a slotted plate (?) for the strut to allow more movement and then come back. He wasn't sure such a thing existed. He thought maybe the front end had been hit, but I have nothing in my records and I see nothing on the car to indicate accident damage. I know there was a lot of variability in how these cars left the factory, so that may be it. After a discussion with more technical jargon than I could follow the bottom line was he felt it was fine if I wanted to leave it as is, but I should watch for tire wear or any change in handling. I do feel the car drives fine. It doesn't pull, it tracks nicely, etc.

I printed out the specs from the Porsche Workshop manual. I assume these are what I should bring with me. We all know how much shops love it when you show up and explain to them how to do their work......

[mgp4591]

My bet is the jokers pulled all the shims and are too lazy to use the shims to set the camber properly; takes too much time.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif)

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif)

That, or possibly if you/they lowered the car and you didnt provide them extra shims they just didnt have them to bring the camber back out again.

Check the numbers on the printout they hopefully gave you.

James, he did say that they returned some shims to him, more than he supplied them with. The car definitely looks lower that when Bob sold it to him...I'd ask if they'd messed with the ride height or if he did. That rear end looks more like 3 degrees negative. If they didn't mess with ride height, I'd agree that they were lazy and didn't take the time to shim the rears properly...in actuality, it doesn't take that long to install the shims once you know how but it's not the norm for most shops these days.

[Superhawk996]

I assume these are what I should bring with me.

Not really an issue of presenting them with the specs. The camber specs they have for front, rear, and cross camber are correct. They just ignored them.

The issue is they sent you out the door with 3 of 4 corners out of spec. Front cross camber (difference between left and right side) is also out of spec. Cross camber can cause pull issues. Even worse, they appear to have thrown a bunch of jargon at you to baffle you with (IMG:style_emoticons/default/bs.gif) rather than teaching you about what they did or didn’t do.

Both front and rear camber are related to ride height, so it is true that if the car is lowered substantially you’ll gain camber (increasing in the negative direction). I can’t tell from original picture if car was lowered or it just is the camera angles that make it look lowered because the upper wheels have been cambered into the rear wheel wheel / arches. If they did the lowering they should have advised you about the side effect. However they could still remove rear camber by shimming which they don’t seem to have done based on you getting shims back (and obvious appearance).

It is possible you could have a bent strut on left front. My opinion is that their job is to suss this out and advise you. Likewise if it was collision damage preventing them from adjusting camber, I’d expect them to be able to point out that damage rather than advising you about slotted top strut plates. FYI slotted plates are available from Elephant Racing. You definitely don’t want or need these on a street car. What baffles me is that a supposed P-car “race” shop tech mentions them but doesn’t seem to know if they exist? Just not adding up for me.

Your call on whether second chances are warranted. Based on the one side of the story, as presented, I’m not impressed. Might be a go to for modern P-cars but they don’t seem to be serving you very well based on what has been presented thus far.

Note 1: in some cases you can equalize front camber side to side by shifting the front crossmember. This would potentially remove camber from the left and shift it over to the right. The 914 crossmember doesn’t have much slop to do this with and the geometry isn’t going to yield much but it might get a tiny bit (we are fighting for tenths of a degree here). You would need a shop that knows what they are doing and that really cares to even try this.

Note 2: The other thing that I would try is to get some negative camber into the right front strut (target -0.3 degrees) so as to try to get the cross camber into spec even if I couldn’t get the left to move less negative at all (stays -0.6 degrees). This would bring cross camber to -0.3 degrees (in spec).

[technicalninja]

OK, here's the sheet from the shop:

@SuperHawk996

Both you and I "saw" -2.5-3 degrees of negative camber in the first photos.

I said -2+ and you said, "To my eye it looks like more than negative two degrees."

I'd bet BIG money both of us are right!

The "pre-alignment" pics looked decent. They were at the wrong camera angle to really tell but looked "stock" to my eyes.

I don't believe ANY of the numbers on that sheet. I saw that shit and thought "They didn't chuck it up right!

Are there ANY shims in the rear suspension now?

SH said, "My bet is the jokers pulled all the shims and are too lazy to use the shims to set the camber properly; takes too much time."

I thought "Yep, He's RIGHT!
So, you and I are lock step here...

No WAY would I take that back before I at least took my own measurements (not that bad with a flat piece of concrete) or had another shop (hopefully decent!) measure it.

Now, I've had a bunch of time on both Visualiners and full on Lazer beds.

It's DAMN hard to align a car, take it on a test drive, have an issue, re-chuck it up and end up with the exact same numbers a second time.

The Visualiner was BETTER at consistent results. You had to MANUALLY center the heads.
The visualiner just produced final numbers, it didn't have "acceptable ranges" or a nice print out. YOU HAD TO THINK with a Visualiner.

I was initially trained on a Visualiner but got LUCKY early on.

I watched/was trained by a FREAKING master that used ONLY flat concrete and would not accept a bed. The "flattest concrete" in the Mazda dealership I worked at was in the center aisle in the middle of the service department.

He was the head of the dealership's "race" program and was a Ferrari tech during business hours in the small Ferrari dealership Roger Mauro owned.

Alignments were done by him after-hours on Saturday. Nobody wanted to work on Saturdays anyway. I was a 23 year old tech that was learning fast.

I was there for every alignment he did during my time at Roger Mauro. He taught me 1000% more than anyone else regarding suspension set up.

Do it on flat concrete!
Use cheap ass tools!
Do not trust others IF you have a way of verifying their work.

I still don't believe any of the numbers you got on that sheet!

That car has MORE than -2 degrees camber on the rear. Not -1.4!

[Superhawk996]

I don't believe ANY of the numbers on that sheet. I saw that shit and thought "They didn't chuck it up right!

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif)

The initial front toe looks like almost 3/4” of toe in. Seems hard to believe it drove there with that kind of extreme toe in and didn’t feel significantly different before vs after alignment. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wacko.gif)

[fiacra]

The pictures are deceptive, if you think they show a lowered car. The car is not lowered. The shop did not lower the car. I have not lowered the car.

They did check for accident damage, and they didn't find any. They also checked to see if I had a bent spindle. I didn't hear any mention of a bent strut. Nomenclature specific to our particular areas of expertise and knowledge can be confusing to someone without our fund of knowledge. If you come into my office I can confuse the hell out of you without much effort with an explanation that a colleague of mine would find concise and precise. I think I got the bottom line on his explanation, just didn't clearly follow the path to get there.

I'll bring it back for them to recheck. We'll see what they say and I'll report back. At least two trusted members whose opinions I would hazard to guess most of us respect have spoken up to say they take their cars there. They deserve a chance to at least inspect their own work and see what conclusions they arrive at. I'm not happy about having to make a long drive, but I am positive I have done things that have inconvenienced other people without intending to do so. I won't stand in judgement, yet.

Thanks everybody for your input. It has been helpful.

[technicalninja]

3/4" of toe in will DESTROY a set of front tires in 20 miles.

Toe IS the tire killer here!

I helped a friend install a rack in an Infinity I30 once.

He was taking the car from his garage to NTB to have both a full on 4-wheel alignment done and new tires installed. He needed to drive 10 miles.

I shortchanged the job and didn't actually measure toe.

"Free for a friend" an all...

The tires were old but had another 5k worth of rubber on them.

I just quickly "eyeballed" it and he went to the tire shop.

Both front tires "corded" on the way, and he BARELY got to the tire shop.

Ninja got a NEW RULE that day! "Always, always check toe with at least a tape measure!"

He had a little under 1/2" of toe in...

[fiacra]

I don't believe ANY of the numbers on that sheet. I saw that shit and thought "They didn't chuck it up right!

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif)

The initial front toe looks like almost 3/4” of toe in. Seems hard to believe it drove there with that kind of extreme toe in and didn’t feel significantly different before vs after alignment. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wacko.gif)

And yet....it didn't feel significantly different. I'm willing to accept that someone else might have noticed a difference. I just checked and there is at least one shim in place on the right side.

[tygaboy]

@fiacra Broheen - I have a buddy who is all about suspension set up. He has a couple 914s (among many other cars) and knows what he's doing. If you end up needing some help, let me know and I'll get you introduced to him.

[technicalninja]

@fiacra Broheen - I have a buddy who is all about suspension set up. He has a couple 914s (among many other cars) and knows what he's doing. If you end up needing some help, let me know and I'll get you introduced to him.

BINGO!

That's the route I'd take now in your shoes...

If the alignment shop was close, I'd let them have another crack at it (after measuring the camber with a digital level!).

If it's a "long drive" I'd hit Chris up FIRST.

I'd also be loath to drive that any serious distance.
Incorrect alignment can destroy tires quickly.
That would be a trailer past "close" for me.

[bkrantz]

Roger Kraus Racing is/was the go to local shop for P-car alignments. I took a couple of cars there for 4-wheel alignments in the past, their work was excellent. I think I heard the biz changed ownership a few years ago and who knows the caliber of the techs now.

Maybe consider taking the alignment specs to them and see if they will honorably redo their work to comply. I am sure they charge a premium.

Thanks Jeff. I value your opinion regarding the shop. Still the same owners. Roger was there, and his son Brandon was who I dealt with and who did the work. I will give them a call on Monday and see about going back with the car. Brandon did explain that he could not get the front end into spec. He had the left strut moved as far as he could. He suggested I could investigate getting a slotted plate (?) for the strut to allow more movement and then come back. He wasn't sure such a thing existed. He thought maybe the front end had been hit, but I have nothing in my records and I see nothing on the car to indicate accident damage. I know there was a lot of variability in how these cars left the factory, so that may be it. After a discussion with more technical jargon than I could follow the bottom line was he felt it was fine if I wanted to leave it as is, but I should watch for tire wear or any change in handling. I do feel the car drives fine. It doesn't pull, it tracks nicely, etc.

I printed out the specs from the Porsche Workshop manual. I assume these are what I should bring with me. We all know how much shops love it when you show up and explain to them how to do their work......

I will say one more time that ride height is critical for attaining camber specs. Cars that are too low (or too high) run out of adjustment before getting into spec.

[jim_hoyland]

Two things I’ve learned over the years:
1. If it’s your first time using a shop, ask if they have done a 914 before.
2. Take a set of shiims for the trailing arm adjustment. I keep a jar full along with an extra set of bolts. And, I loan the jar to local tenets.

[Craigers17]

This is Excessive negative camber:

[MartyYeoman]

Sorry to hear you're having such a difficult time with Brandon over at Roger Kraus. I've used them twice over the years with what I would consider excellent results. First time was to setup an unknown condition car to be a commuter/spirited twisty road car. Lowered with spacers at the steering rack. The thing handled like on rails after I got it back. Very pleased. Second time was to just validate specs as it had been multiple years (15+) and I'd just replaced all four tires. The alignment had held surprisingly well. Tire wear has always been a concern but never been a problem. I've always run Summer/Performance tires and yes the rears wear more on the inside but the setup seems worth it. No complaints. Tire wear was never unacceptable even when I used the car as my daily driver/commute car. I'll attach the spec sheet from my latest visit. Brandon was the alignment tech both times.

[fiacra]

Sorry to hear you're having such a difficult time with Brandon over at Roger Kraus. I've used them twice over the years with what I would consider excellent results. First time was to setup an unknown condition car to be a commuter/spirited twisty road car. Lowered with spacers at the steering rack. The thing handled like on rails after I got it back. Very pleased. Second time was to just validate specs as it had been multiple years (15+) and I'd just replaced all four tires. The alignment had held surprisingly well. Tire wear has always been a concern but never been a problem. I've always run Summer/Performance tires and yes the rears wear more on the inside but the setup seems worth it. No complaints. Tire wear was never unacceptable even when I used the car as my daily driver/commute car. I'll attach the spec sheet from my latest visit. Brandon was the alignment tech both times.

@MartyYeoman

Can you post some pictures of what the stance of your rear wheels look like? Curious to see if it looks similar to mine.

Thanks!

[worn]

This is Excessive negative camber:

More cowbell to be sure. These folks and others like them at least know what they are trying to achieve. May not perform so great but at least you get the look. Not quite the same as wanting to drive.