914 structure, How are they made? Options

[Ace Le Count]

Hi all, from what I understand, the longs are double thickness? Is it the same all the way through the car, as in the top, bottom, and sides of them? Just trying to understand how these cars are built. Photos would really help. Thanks!

[Montreal914]

That is quite a wide question but let me try to explain some. The longs are doubled up in the elbow in the rear on both the inner and outer halves of the beam.

The yellow line on the left is the termination of the inside inner layer. On my car, you can see I actually cut the bottom half of it because it was compromized. As you can see, the inside inner forward lower part also includes the seatbelt point (round hole ~1"). This inside inner layer become corrugated after the elbow and goes pretty much to the upper end of the long.

The inside outer layer goes toward the front about the same at the inside inner. It does support the jack point area. Actually, if the jack point piramid is removed, you should see an indented shallow pyramid with a square which is in the ouside outer layer and a large hole (~2 1/2") would be the inside outer layer. The inside outer layer also goes up the long but ends about 2/3 in a V shape represented by the right yellow line in my picture.


You can also star here in my build thread that I am getting back into, after too many months... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)

http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?sho...9463&st=110

You will see some picture showing how it's made. But best is probably to read through the reference build thread such as Jeff Hail, BBrock (RIP), others...

[JeffBowlsby]

https://bowlsby.net/914/Classic/Sections.htm

[930cabman]

Hi all, from what I understand, the longs are double thickness? Is it the same all the way through the car, as in the top, bottom, and sides of them? Just trying to understand how these cars are built. Photos would really help. Thanks!

The framework is made up of thin gauge formed sheet steel sections often welded together to form rigid sections. Track cars generally add another layer to further stiffen the framework

[Ace Le Count]

That is quite a wide question but let me try to explain some. The longs are doubled up in the elbow in the rear on both the inner and outer halves of the beam.

The yellow line on the left is the termination of the inside inner layer. On my car, you can see I actually cut the bottom half of it because it was compromized. As you can see, the inside inner forward lower part also includes the seatbelt point (round hole ~1"). This inside inner layer become corrugated after the elbow and goes pretty much to the upper end of the long.

The inside outer layer goes toward the front about the same at the inside inner. It does support the jack point area. Actually, if the jack point piramid is removed, you should see an indented shallow pyramid with a square which is in the ouside outer layer and a large hole (~2 1/2") would be the inside outer layer. The inside outer layer also goes up the long but ends about 2/3 in a V shape represented by the right yellow line in my picture.


You can also star here in my build thread that I am getting back into, after too many months... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)

http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?sho...9463&st=110

You will see some picture showing how it's made. But best is probably to read through the reference build thread such as Jeff Hail, BBrock (RIP), others...

Thank you for your answer. I found this on your build thread. It is what I was looking for, but was wondering how far it goes. If the whole long is like this or not. your photo with the yellow lines helped to clarify things for me.

[windforfun]

Wasn't this the first uni-body car to be sold in the US?

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/beer3.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beer3.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beer3.gif)

[930cabman]

Wasn't this the first uni-body car to be sold in the US?

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/beer3.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beer3.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beer3.gif)

356

[technicalninja]

https://gizmodo.com/a-brief-history-of-unib...600%20in%201941.

Nash looks like they take the cake!

VW was close behind with the Bettle (which sold thousands of times better).

I consider the beetle as Uni-body. Some might not.

[930cabman]

https://gizmodo.com/a-brief-history-of-unib...600%20in%201941.

Nash looks like they take the cake!

VW was close behind with the Bettle (which sold thousands of times better).

I consider the beetle as Uni-body. Some might not.

I would say no to the beetle, it had a spine for structure IIRC

[technicalninja]

Beetle had a "pan" that got substantially stronger when the body was bolted to it.

If you want to use the "pan" as an off-road vehicle you have to weld/bolt a roll cage assembly to it to give it strength.

The pan alone is not really enough IMO.

Now, a vehicle with a "frame" can function without any of the body on it. The body is not part of the stressed assembly.

[technicalninja]

This is a good thread to look through regarding structure.

Fred's rebuilding MOST of the important parts of the unibody.

Some areas are far more than 2 layers...

It is also a good reference as to what happens internally and what you have to do to repair it. Had that NOT been a Bumble Bee, I'd have thrown it away.

http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=368359

[KELTY360]

Wasn't this the first uni-body car to be sold in the US?

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/beer3.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beer3.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beer3.gif)

356

First unibody car in the US was the ‘36 Lincoln Zephyr.

[nathanxnathan]

Here are a few pics I have that show how it's layered. To use the terminology in the diagram, Auto Atlanta has a piece that includes the inside outer and outside outer already assembled/welded together. The outside outer is actually the inner wheel well.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/232571921636?chn=p...BoaAnr1EALw_wcB

On the outside the long is a separate piece just forward of the firewall. You can see here how there is a flap that overlaps both layers of the rear. I think I fudged them together at the top here which I don't think is actually correct. It all gets sandwiched together as the rear of the door jam comes together with it.



Here's a pic of the inside, the 1 piece that goes from the rear of the front fender past the firewall, and it's cut just forward of the front of the trunk



Tricky to remove rear of that as there's a double layer section that overlaps it just in front of the trunk.



And a shot of both layers of the inside which includes the lower seatbelt mounting point.




I wouldn't recommend doing it how I did here, to remove the inside with the outside still attached. I feel like it would go way smoother to build up the car from the inside out as most builds I've seen do it.

[worn]

Hi all, from what I understand, the longs are double thickness? Is it the same all the way through the car, as in the top, bottom, and sides of them? Just trying to understand how these cars are built. Photos would really help. Thanks!

Another thing worth mentioning is that for repairs you make the largest hole on the outer layers, outer meaning farthest from the center of the structure member being fixed, then you make a smaller removal for the next layer and so on. Then you make repairs one layer at a time. You need to do this for access.

[930cabman]

Hi all, from what I understand, the longs are double thickness? Is it the same all the way through the car, as in the top, bottom, and sides of them? Just trying to understand how these cars are built. Photos would really help. Thanks!

Another thing worth mentioning is that for repairs you make the largest hole on the outer layers, outer meaning farthest from the center of the structure member being fixed, then you make a smaller removal for the next layer and so on. Then you make repairs one layer at a time. You need to do this for access.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif)

Try to have 8" or so of overlap with your splices

[Ace Le Count]

Here are a few pics I have that show how it's layered. To use the terminology in the diagram, Auto Atlanta has a piece that includes the inside outer and outside outer already assembled/welded together. The outside outer is actually the inner wheel well.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/232571921636?chn=p...BoaAnr1EALw_wcB

On the outside the long is a separate piece just forward of the firewall. You can see here how there is a flap that overlaps both layers of the rear. I think I fudged them together at the top here which I don't think is actually correct. It all gets sandwiched together as the rear of the door jam comes together with it.

Here's a pic of the inside, the 1 piece that goes from the rear of the front fender past the firewall, and it's cut just forward of the front of the trunk

Tricky to remove rear of that as there's a double layer section that overlaps it just in front of the trunk.
And a shot of both layers of the inside which includes the lower seatbelt mounting point.

I wouldn't recommend doing it how I did here, to remove the inside with the outside still attached. I feel like it would go way smoother to build up the car from the inside out as most builds I've seen do it.

Thank you! This is the exact answer I was looking for! Thanks to everyone for their help!

[friethmiller]

This is a good thread to look through regarding structure.

Fred's rebuilding MOST of the important parts of the unibody.

Some areas are far more than 2 layers...

It is also a good reference as to what happens internally and what you have to do to repair it. Had that NOT been a Bumble Bee, I'd have thrown it away.

http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=368359

Ha! Yes, I would have never purchased the car, if I had any doubt of its rarity.

[didenpx]

That is quite a wide question but let me try to explain some. The longs are doubled up in the elbow in the rear on both the inner and outer halves of the beam.

The yellow line on the left is the termination of the inside inner layer. On my car, you can see I actually cut the bottom half of it because it was compromized. As you can see, the inside inner forward lower part also includes the seatbelt point (round hole ~1"). This inside inner layer become corrugated after the elbow and goes pretty much to the upper end of the long.

The inside outer layer goes toward the front about the same at the inside inner. It does support the jack point area. Actually, if the jack point piramid is removed, you should see an indented shallow pyramid with a square which is in the ouside outer layer and a large hole (~2 1/2") would be the inside outer layer. The inside outer layer also goes up the long but ends about 2/3 in a V shape represented by the right yellow line in my picture.


You can also star here in my build thread that I am getting back into, after too many months... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)

http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?sho...9463&st=110

You will see some picture showing how it's made. But best is probably to read through the reference build thread such as Jeff Hail, BBrock (RIP), others...

Thank you for your answer. I found this on your build thread. It is what I was looking for, but was wondering how far it goes. If the whole long is like this or not. your photo with the yellow lines helped to clarify things for me.

Posting this here specifically to address whether the whole long looks like this. I don't think so. below is a photo looking into the front of the sill structure from the front wheel well of my 1975. You can make out three separate layers of metal: the bottom of the door pillar post, the inner rocker, another layer of metal (called what?), and finally the heating ducts). I'll be peeling this open in the coming week or so and will post more detailed photos once I'm properly in there.

[Ace Le Count]

That is quite a wide question but let me try to explain some. The longs are doubled up in the elbow in the rear on both the inner and outer halves of the beam.

The yellow line on the left is the termination of the inside inner layer. On my car, you can see I actually cut the bottom half of it because it was compromized. As you can see, the inside inner forward lower part also includes the seatbelt point (round hole ~1"). This inside inner layer become corrugated after the elbow and goes pretty much to the upper end of the long.

The inside outer layer goes toward the front about the same at the inside inner. It does support the jack point area. Actually, if the jack point piramid is removed, you should see an indented shallow pyramid with a square which is in the ouside outer layer and a large hole (~2 1/2") would be the inside outer layer. The inside outer layer also goes up the long but ends about 2/3 in a V shape represented by the right yellow line in my picture.


You can also star here in my build thread that I am getting back into, after too many months... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)

http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?sho...9463&st=110

You will see some picture showing how it's made. But best is probably to read through the reference build thread such as Jeff Hail, BBrock (RIP), others...

Thank you for your answer. I found this on your build thread. It is what I was looking for, but was wondering how far it goes. If the whole long is like this or not. your photo with the yellow lines helped to clarify things for me.

Posting this here specifically to address whether the whole long looks like this. I don't think so. below is a photo looking into the front of the sill structure from the front wheel well of my 1975. You can make out three separate layers of metal: the bottom of the door pillar post, the inner rocker, another layer of metal (called what?), and finally the heating ducts). I'll be peeling this open in the coming week or so and will post more detailed photos once I'm properly in there.

That would be awesome! Thank you!

[didenpx]

This is the cross section of the front part of the longitudinal looking from the rear of the vehicle toward the front. You can clearly make out an additional structural element between the outer sill and the heating duct. It extends to about the lame distance as the rear portion of the A-pillar/bottom of door pillar. The front of mine is gone, but I surmise that it is shaped similar to the front of the outer sill. It appears to provide additional structural rigidity in the area of the sills beneath the door pillar.