Tear Down and Reassemble Unstarted 1.7 built to 2270, 1.7 to 2270 Unstarted 10 Year Old Build Options

[Robroe]

Moved from topic of first start of 10 year old build to tear down, inspect and reassemble. The 10 year old build is from a 73 1.7 to a 2270. Stroked to 78 mm and 96 mm cylinder diameter. Heads are Ham/RAT with 36 mm exhaust and 44 mm intake. Both are nicely ported.

Have torn it down to the case and checking crank end play before I split the case and pull the cam and crank. So far, everything is new and looks in good order. I'm concerned about oil passages being blocked with old assembly lube so a complete tear down and reassemble is happening. Discovered stacked cylinder spacers (4) totaling .150". So looking to replace those with single spacers. So far I can only find .160" spacers from type 4 store and may just use them as impact on compression appears minimal. Was shocked to discover crank end play is .450"! Sure glad I didn't try to start this thing. Will check again in the morning to make sure I'm checking it correctly, but I'm doing the same thing on the videos such as Ian Carrs YouTube engine builds so pretty sure I'm checking it correctly. Now to figure out what to do about that huge end play.

Any thoughts about what to watch out for?

[wndsrfr]

Primary main bearing missing the thrust faces? Nearly half inch end play is unimaginable....
Get it back together right & you'll LOVE it! Mine is a Raby kit 2316 and is wonderful...especially with Chris Foley's tangerine headers & muffler--gives a sound that will put a grin on your face that you can't wipe off with a handful of hundred dollar bills!

[Superhawk996]

Primary main bearing missing the thrust faces? Nearly half inch end play is unimaginable....

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Take your time. Make sure your dial indicator is mounted rigidly.

But fully agree that you’ll likely want to split the case to know exactly what is in there and to be sure that something isn’t completely whacked like that level of crank end play.

Keep posting here with pictures as necessary.

Get spacers custom made as necessary - don’t compromise compression ratio just to use off the shelf cylinder shim.

[Robroe]

Primary main bearing missing the thrust faces? Nearly half inch end play is unimaginable....

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Take your time. Make sure your dial indicator is mounted rigidly.

But fully agree that you’ll likely want to split the case to know exactly what is in there and to be sure that something isn’t completely whacked like that level of crank end play.

Keep posting here with pictures as necessary.

Get spacers custom made as necessary - don’t compromise compression ratio just to use off the shelf cylinder shim.

Can crank end play be checked with the case split?

[Superhawk996]

Eh . . . Sort of but not really.

Bottom line - remeasure end play prior to case disassembly until you get the hang of it and have a repeatable measurement. Did you by chance typo the end play by shifting a decimal place? Like maybe 0.045” rather than 0.450”?

You will reset it later but you need to be comfortable and consistently measuring it properly.

The crank end play is set by shimming the space between the flywheel and the axial thrust surface of the last crank bearing. So this can’t be set when the case is spit. However, it can be mocked up in a case half and you would definitely see where excessive crank play was coming from if bearings were completely jacked up.

[Superhawk996]

Have you gone through the Tom Wilson book? I know there are details in there about how to measure and set crank end play. I can’t remember the details of how Raby covers it in the DVD.

You should also bookmark this link to the factory manual which contains a wealth of information on engine specs, torque values, assembly informations

http://p914-6info.net/Manuals.htm

[Robroe]

Have you gone through the Tom Wilson book? I know there are details in there about how to measure and set crank end play. I can’t remember the details of how Raby covers it in the DVD.

You should also bookmark this link to the factory manual which contains a wealth of information on engine specs, torque values, assembly informations

http://p914-6info.net/Manuals.htm

You were right. Crank End play is .045 - .052. Tried to split the case per Jake’s video with partial success. Got the fan end 1/8 “ apart but the flywheel end isn’t moving. Removed all fasteners and check again many times. I’m considering buying a case splitter tool to try to split it evenly to avoid binding when coming apart crooked. Anyone use the splitter from 914Werkes? Hope it works on both ends. The previous builder must have used rtv and gorilla glue!

[Superhawk996]

Do not force it with a case splitter. Really should call those things case breakers, because that is what they do if used to force a case apart.


There are case fasteners behind the flywheel. Have you removed the flywheel to access those?

Also there is a hidden bolt down by the oil pickup.


Info on fastener quantity and location in link below

http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=50873

If you have it split at the front, there is no need for a case splitter. Case splitters, large hammers, and pry tools do more damage than good.

Find the fastener that is holding it.

[Superhawk996]

.045” of crank end play sounds like there are no shims there. 0.045” is excessive and about 10x the spec.

Shims are behind the flywheel. If you’ve removed the flywheel, were there 3 shims between flywheel and end of the main bearing?

Look closely - they can be stuck to the bearing with oil and obscured by the rear main seal.

Note: there must be 3, and only 3 shims used at reassembly to set crank endplay. Cross that bridge later but you need to be aware of this.

[technicalninja]

Not having those three back there ABSOLUTELY BLOWS the original build IMO.

If they couldn't get the "simple" correct HOW the FUCH could they do the complex...

I'm the TECHNICAL ninja...

Us proper nomenclature when you are posting about the engine.

You DO NOT have a 2270...

That requires a 78.6mm crank. At one time that size was common.

I believe you have a 78mm crank. (common today) Mathematically you have a 2258.

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[Superhawk996]

Proper nomenclature is 2.3L

A stock 2.0L is 1971cc. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/lol-2.gif) just sayin’

Let’s not be busting his chops over 0.6mm of stroke.

[technicalninja]

I would NOT worry about determining shim selection on ANYTHING now.

Take measurements, write them down, and then forget about them...

With botched crank endplay ALL of the build is suspect.

I'd be worried about internal clearances at this time if I was in your shoes.

Important questions IMO are.

Has the valve train been upgraded?

I'd EXPECT skinny ass steel pushrods.

Fixed solid shimmed rocker arm assemblies.

Elephant feet valve adjusters.

Explanation on this junk can be found in Ian Karr's vids (which are GOOD!).

Internally I expect
Billet oil pump with O-rings on the OD.
Adjustable cam gear.
Reduced base circle camshaft with serious numbers.
The LN 9520 might be a good choice.

You might get by with the aftermarket rods/reduced base circle cam and NO internal clearance mods, but I would EXPECT evidence of clearance mods to one of the rods and maybe the case. 78mm is getting close enough to other shit that VERIFING stroker clearance is a requirement.

I'd bet that hasn't been done on this build...

I'm going to take second fiddle on this thread.
You have the Hawk looking over your shoulder and he is BAD ASSED!
If he gives bad advice, I WILL eviscerate him publicly as I expect him to return the favor if the roles are reversed...

Of all the posters here, I'd bet MORE MONEY that he is "more" correct than anyone else.

You have a KICK ASS mentor...

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[73-914]

Proper nomenclature is 2.3L

A stock 2.0L is 1971cc. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/lol-2.gif) just sayin’

Let’s not be busting his chops over 0.6mm of stroke.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/poke.gif) Like the mythical frame-off restoration of unibody cars (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beer3.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/stirthepot.gif)

[technicalninja]

Proper nomenclature is 2.3L

A stock 2.0L is 1971cc. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/lol-2.gif) just sayin’

Let’s not be busting his chops over 0.6mm of stroke.

I AM A CHOP BUSTING BITCH!

There is a REASON I was named "The Technicalninja" by my shop buddies...

If you're building an engine DECIMAL point are important...

I have Pi memorized to the 7th digit. 3.1415927.

Why 7?

Cause that is what fits in a normal ass calculator...

[Superhawk996]

Crank End play is .045 - .052.

Just a point of note: when you put the engine back together you will have to measure more accurately than this. That range of measurement encompasses the TOTAL spec for crank end play.

Need to be repeatable at measuring this to within no more than 0.002” at most and really should be to 0.001”.

Plenty of time to deal with that at reassembly.

However, I’m with Ninja, that 0.045” or anything like that is a huge red flag and means everything needs to be looked at.

Could be as simple as an engine built to a high standard and someone threw a flywheel on it to sell.

However, I don’t think this is the case given some of the other warning signs we’ve seen like multiple cylinder shims.

And just one more reminder - keep everything indexed and organized with respect to where it came from.

[Superhawk996]

. . .
If he gives bad advice, I WILL eviscerate him publicly as I expect him to return the favor if the roles are reversed...

Thank you for the kind words and you’re not second fiddle to anyone (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

I’d expect nothing less. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

[Robroe]

. . .
If he gives bad advice, I WILL eviscerate him publicly as I expect him to return the favor if the roles are reversed...

Thank you for the kind words and you’re not second fiddle to anyone (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

I’d expect nothing less. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

You guys are amazing and I'm very thankful that you are willing to share your knowledge. It's fun to learn from you!

Here are picts of my almost split case. It seems to be hanging up on the top of the flywheel side just on one side. Wonder if a dowel got wedged in there or maybe the plastic reinforcements on the 6 through bolts are somehow hanging it up. Maybe I should push it back together and start again to see it will come apart when pulled straight off instead of wiggling it back and forth?

[Robroe]

. . .
If he gives bad advice, I WILL eviscerate him publicly as I expect him to return the favor if the roles are reversed...

Thank you for the kind words and you’re not second fiddle to anyone (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

I’d expect nothing less. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

You guys are amazing and I'm very thankful that you are willing to share your knowledge. It's fun to learn from you!

Here are picts of my almost split case. It seems to be hanging up on the top of the flywheel side just on one side. Wonder if a dowel got wedged in there or maybe the plastic reinforcements on the 6 through bolts are somehow hanging it up. Maybe I should push it back together and start again to see it will come apart when pulled straight off instead of wiggling it back and forth?

BTW - There were 3 shims on the crankshaft for end play. Without them, the end play was .060". Also, the felt washer was missing. Hope that comes in the gasket set.

[Superhawk996]

You didn’t show photo of the oil pump pick up tube fastener.

I think you probably got it in order to get it split that far. But double check - count them.

Yes - case can bind and sometimes go have to go back and close it up and then be more careful to split it evenly end to end, just a little at a time.

You can also use a block of wood and a hammer to knock on the flywheel end ribs, back and forth, side to side to help open up the top side, flywheel end but as shown with it that far open at the fan, it’s probably binding.




Nothing brutal, . . . Finesse it more than force it.

[technicalninja]

Here's a thought I just had...

What if the crankshaft end play was .0045 to .0052 and Rodroe is just really, really BAD at reading dial indicators?

He had ALL three shims and still reported .040-.052.

I don't think that is possible either...

His end play is excellent, and his dial indicator readings were with .0007 of each other makes far more sense.

Hey Rob, the number of decimals PAST the dot is STUPID important!

Was the clearance a tiny little "click" that you can feel but not really see or a significant movement you could see?

We want the tiny little click...
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