Tear Down and Reassemble Unstarted 1.7 built to 2270, 1.7 to 2270 Unstarted 10 Year Old Build Options

[Jack Standz]

@burton73

Not only does that piston have a shorter crown to pin height (which as Ninja points out allows for longer rods and/or strokes without thicker cylinder spacers) it sure looks lightweight. Those or similar pistons might be real nice for a future project.

Bob, do you have any photos of identifying marks on the piston? I did a quick search for Keith Black Harley Davidson 96mm flat top pistons, but it'd be helpful to see which piston that one is (it's always possible that it is a custom one).

Thx!

[Jack Standz]

Here is a JE forged piston where the oil ring is almost into the pin area, so it's a slightly "taller" piston compared to the KB piston Bob posted a photo of above.

[Superhawk996]

Anyone have an idea what the hole (the one drilled into the oil passage) in the oil pump is for in the upper right of this photo? It's not standard.

@Robroe

Could you post some photos if what's been modified on that oil pump's output passage? Thx!

I could be wrong but I think what they are trying to do is set the pump up for a full flow cover

[burton73]

Anyone have an idea what the hole (the one drilled into the oil passage) in the oil pump is for in the upper right of this photo? It's not standard.

@Robroe

Could you post some photos if what's been modified on that oil pump's output passage? Thx!

I have no idea what the hole is but, this picture is the new SCHADEK oil pump we used. Got it from Jorge.

Best Bob B

[technicalninja]

@burton73

Not only does that piston have a shorter crown to pin height (which as Ninja points out allows for longer rods without thicker cylinder spacers) it sure looks lightweight. Those or similar pistons might be real nice for a future project.

Bob, do you have any photos of identifying marks on the piston? I did a quick search for Keith Black Harley Davidson 96mm flat top pistons, but it'd be helpful to see which piston that one is (it's always possible that it is a custom one).

Thx!

Here is a JE forged piston where the oil ring is almost into the pin area, so it's a slightly "taller" piston compared to the KB piston Bob posted a photo of above.

Excellent reference pics!
I use J.E. a BUNCH!
The KB can be had from EMW?
The KB is lighter than the J.E.
The J.E. is stronger and when it fails it stays together and just gets mangled and dented.
As the KB is cast it DETONATES like a hand grenade at failure.
It's possible to lose the entire engine with cast pistons!

The KB is cast hypereutectic (as are MOST cast are nowadays) and requires 1/2 the piston to bore clearance the J.E. needs

For a street motor below 100hp/L I PREFER cast hyper SHITLOADS over forged.

Constant Hi RPM/combat use and ANY BOOST at all gets switched to a forged.

The J.E. will COME with in 1 gram of each other and the machine work is "to die for".

The KB will hit +/- 5 grams and really should be hand balanced.

The J.E. uses 1mm rings and the KB uses fatter. The J.E. is more critical to bore surface finish but if a good seal is gained it will have half the piston ring drag force of the KB stuff.

Often times a loose forged skinny ring set up needs POSITVE crankcase evacuation to assist in improving ring seal. A dry sump oil system ore a dedicated vacuum pump for the engine is employed.

Forged is overkill for a street based naturally aspirated application and requires fully warming the engine (Oil TEMP!) before going WFO.

My experience is water pumper and getting the coolant temp to show "normal" doesn't mean shit. The oil temp is how to know your $$$$ killer forged street engine can be hammered.

The pinnacle of this type of BS is the F1 engines of the past. Some of them would be plugged into an oil warmer that circulated hot oil though the engine.
OVERNIGHT!!!!!

That's a ninja's take on the above pistons. The JE are 2 to three times the cost of the KB. The KB are lighter and will allow a longer rod.
The KB require more work for installation and the thicker rings are more forgiving of a less than flawless bore surface.

Ninja guess...
The JE have JUST been unwrapped for the first time and still show debris in the ring lands.
It's hurts to see!
I'd be a deburring bitch because of that.
All of my JE applications have NOT required any prep or balancing.
I like Wiseco nearly as well.

I would LOVE the Supertech pistons available in the high silicon material EXCEPT every single Supertech I have messed with are dimensionally incorrect and have huge variations in them.

I'm having to accept less than optimal quench in a Supertech equipped Mazda Miata BP due to casting variations which are NOT easily machinable.
"Deck height" varies .015" which is the largest variation I have ever encountered even in stock crap.
The bores are perfect, the engine had 2K miles on it and YES, I did install NEW rings and had the bores plateau honed,,,

I would still like to throw them in the trash...

[technicalninja]

Help a Ninja out please...

At some things I'm a moron!

How can I attach "thumbnails" so I can include the pictures.

The pictures are actually the only thing I wanted any way...

[technicalninja]

Last bit bout the three piston designs we've seen,

The OP original piston has valve depressions (a trough) and the moly applied to the skirts already...

I PREFER to use true flat tops like the KB and JE slugs but checking valve to piston clearance gets HYPER-CRITICAL.
Any mistake in your building abilities or camshaft timing abilities WILL lead to a visit from the Grim Reaper...

Having valve depression makes it far more forgiving!

If I'm required to use valve depressions, I FAR prefer a trough over two eyebrows...

Some of the STRONGEST pistons for a BP Miata are these.

https://flyinmiata.com/products/flyin-miata...d-turbo-pistons

https://flyinmiata.com/cdn/shop/products/04...3&width=823

Those have everything! Ceramic coated, skinny rings, troughs, Moly.
Notice, they don't bi-sect the ring land either as the JEs shown previously.
This is STRONGER and best as long as your rod ratios are usable.

The roll pin solution for the KBs is the first time I've seen that cat skinned in that manner.
"Normal" solution is an extra lower ring "support" that looks like a BIG spiraloc.
Every 3.75 stroked SBC that uses 6" rods has one on each piston. (this, is a SUPER common combination, A "383")

The OP pistons are fine for his application.
The fact that he's using shorter rods is really not that much a problem.
I believe it would be HARD to see the difference on a chassis dyno (short rod to long rod test).
I'm a hyper technical type of builder and prefer to have everything perfect but...
Even I will accept less than perfect in my builds (Those Supertech POSs!).

I would ceramic coat those before installation. MUCH cleaning will have to be done.

It's best to coat BRAND new pistons that have never seen engine oil...

Lots of vids on DIY coatings are on YT!

The other BIG difference between the two types (forged over cast)is life expectancy.

I'd be HAPPY at 50k on forged, ecstatic at 100K.
Forged wears faster, increased P/W clearance doesn't help.

Cast, I'd be a "Pissed off Donkey" BELOW 200K!

Cast done right and not overstressed/detonated on SHOULD be considered "Lifetime" in my book!

Cast to me means cast hypereutectic, KB level as the low end.
Real cast old school pistons (non-hyper) should not be used for performance builds IMO.

[930cabman]

I have had great luck with the CB pump #1829. Great pressure on my fresh 2056 build

[Jack Standz]

Anyone have an idea what the hole (the one drilled into the oil passage) in the oil pump is for in the upper right of this photo? It's not standard.

@Robroe

Could you post some photos if what's been modified on that oil pump's output passage? Thx!

I could be wrong but I think what they are trying to do is set the pump up for a full flow cover

I'm gonna say no, as you can see the pressure side isn't plugged or even threaded for a plug. And this is the oil pump removed from the motor, so it was supposedly ready to run in its current configuration. . And the cover isn't a full flow cover, so the oil would flow out that passage.

Maybe more photos will help & you might be right.

[Jack Standz]

@burton73

Not only does that piston have a shorter crown to pin height (which as Ninja points out allows for longer rods without thicker cylinder spacers) it sure looks lightweight. Those or similar pistons might be real nice for a future project.

Bob, do you have any photos of identifying marks on the piston? I did a quick search for Keith Black Harley Davidson 96mm flat top pistons, but it'd be helpful to see which piston that one is (it's always possible that it is a custom one).

Thx!

Here is a JE forged piston where the oil ring is almost into the pin area, so it's a slightly "taller" piston compared to the KB piston Bob posted a photo of above.

Excellent reference pics!
I use J.E. a BUNCH!
The KB can be had from EMW?
The KB is lighter than the J.E.
The J.E. is stronger and when it fails it stays together and just gets mangled and dented.
As the KB is cast it DETONATES like a hand grenade at failure.
It's possible to lose the entire engine with cast pistons!

The KB is cast hypereutectic (as are MOST cast are nowadays) and requires 1/2 the piston to bore clearance the J.E. needs

For a street motor below 100hp/L I PREFER cast hyper SHITLOADS over forged.

Constant Hi RPM/combat use and ANY BOOST at all gets switched to a forged.

The J.E. will COME with in 1 gram of each other and the machine work is "to die for".

The KB will hit +/- 5 grams and really should be hand balanced.

The J.E. uses 1mm rings and the KB uses fatter. The J.E. is more critical to bore surface finish but if a good seal is gained it will have half the piston ring drag force of the KB stuff.

Often times a loose forged skinny ring set up needs POSITVE crankcase evacuation to assist in improving ring seal. A dry sump oil system ore a dedicated vacuum pump for the engine is employed.

Forged is overkill for a street based naturally aspirated application and requires fully warming the engine (Oil TEMP!) before going WFO.

My experience is water pumper and getting the coolant temp to show "normal" doesn't mean shit. The oil temp is how to know your $$$$ killer forged street engine can be hammered.

The pinnacle of this type of BS is the F1 engines of the past. Some of them would be plugged into an oil warmer that circulated hot oil though the engine.
OVERNIGHT!!!!!

That's a ninja's take on the above pistons. The JE are 2 to three times the cost of the KB. The KB are lighter and will allow a longer rod.
The KB require more work for installation and the thicker rings are more forgiving of a less than flawless bore surface.

Ninja guess...
The JE have JUST been unwrapped for the first time and still show debris in the ring lands.
It's hurts to see!
I'd be a deburring bitch because of that.
All of my JE applications have NOT required any prep or balancing.
I like Wiseco nearly as well.

I would LOVE the Supertech pistons available in the high silicon material EXCEPT every single Supertech I have messed with are dimensionally incorrect and have huge variations in them.

I'm having to accept less than optimal quench in a Supertech equipped Mazda Miata BP due to casting variations which are NOT easily machinable.
"Deck height" varies .015" which is the largest variation I have ever encountered even in stock crap.
The bores are perfect, the engine had 2K miles on it and YES, I did install NEW rings and had the bores plateau honed,,,

I would still like to throw them in the trash...

The KB in the photo is for a Harley motorcycle. Probably not available from EMW.

The motor for the JE pistons has nickies cylinders.

Yes, the pistons are brand new and will have coated piston crowns and DFL on the skirts (already have the materials for this procedure). So, yes there will be more work going into these pistons before installation

[Jack Standz]

This is where you add photos after you click on add reply. You browse to the photo location, then click on "add this attachment "

[Jack Standz]

Anyone have an idea what the hole (the one drilled into the oil passage) in the oil pump is for in the upper right of this photo? It's not standard.

@Robroe

Could you post some photos if what's been modified on that oil pump's output passage? Thx!

I have no idea what the hole is but, this picture is the new SCHADEK oil pump we used. Got it from Jorge.

Best Bob B

Thx Bob. As you can see, the new pump doesn't have that hole. Curious why????

[Shivers]

Anyone have an idea what the hole (the one drilled into the oil passage) in the oil pump is for in the upper right of this photo? It's not standard.

@Robroe

Could you post some photos if what's been modified on that oil pump's output passage? Thx!

I have no idea what the hole is but, this picture is the new SCHADEK oil pump we used. Got it from Jorge.

Best Bob B

Thx Bob. As you can see, the new pump doesn't have that hole. Curious why????

Maybe drilled for an external oil cooler, with no hole in the plate it is just a normal oil pump

[Robroe]

I have had great luck with the CB pump #1829. Great pressure on my fresh 2056 build

Yes, this is a CB #1829 pump. Here are more pictures of the hole folks have mentioned.

[Robroe]

Ninja,
You requested photos of cylinders. Is this what you need to see? Also, after case was cleaned, machine marks along crank and cam seem to indicate some clearancing for stroker crank and double thrust for cam bearing. Being a newbie, I'm just guessing that's what these machine marks are.

I've ordered gasket set and new seals from Type 4 Store. Since I'm this far, guess I should take the rods off the crank and super clean everything and check measurements before reassembly. Will get some plastigage to check rod bearings as recommended and clean the heck out of the crank assembly.

[technicalninja]

Those look fine!

That's just two pictures but if everyone looks the same you should be fine.

Case has not been line bored.

Hope it's been checked!

I haven't seen the video yet, but I would EXPECT Mr. Raby's video to go into that.

I'm in agreement with full tear down!

I'd do some oil galley plug inspection/replacement.

Oil galley plugs are a source of trouble for many on here and NOW is the time to address them.
Look at some of the threads (they will be "can't find my oil leak threads").

[Jack Standz]

Anyone have an idea what the hole (the one drilled into the oil passage) in the oil pump is for in the upper right of this photo? It's not standard.

@Robroe

Could you post some photos if what's been modified on that oil pump's output passage? Thx!

I have no idea what the hole is but, this picture is the new SCHADEK oil pump we used. Got it from Jorge.

Best Bob B

Thx Bob. As you can see, the new pump doesn't have that hole. Curious why????

Maybe drilled for an external oil cooler, with no hole in the plate it is just a normal oil pump

OK, that's probably it. Solid cover, it's a regular oil pump. With a full flow cover, you tap and plug the outlet.

But, doesn't the 90 degree turn the oil has to make in a full flow configuration impact flow? IMHO think the Gene Berg is the better way to go.

Thx everyone for adding to the conversation.

Another feature of this pump is the drive gear is keyed onto the shaft. Wonder if that's a good thing in practice? Here's the description:

CB's Maxi Pumps are the only VW oil pumps that have the main drive shaft locked to the pump gear with a wedge key. They can't slip or lose oil pressure. The driven gear runs on a shouldered shaft that locks it firmly in place.

Does the gear/shaft migrate? If so, eventually this can allow the drive gear to hit the cam? Is this better or worse than one without the key?

@Robroe thanks for the additional photos! Very helpful to understand what's going on here.

[burton73]

@burton73

Not only does that piston have a shorter crown to pin height (which as Ninja points out allows for longer rods without thicker cylinder spacers) it sure looks lightweight. Those or similar pistons might be real nice for a future project.

Bob, do you have any photos of identifying marks on the piston? I did a quick search for Keith Black Harley Davidson 96mm flat top pistons, but it'd be helpful to see which piston that one is (it's always possible that it is a custom one).

Thx!

Here is a JE forged piston where the oil ring is almost into the pin area, so it's a slightly "taller" piston compared to the KB piston Bob posted a photo of above.

Excellent reference pics!
I use J.E. a BUNCH!
The KB can be had from EMW?
The KB is lighter than the J.E.
The J.E. is stronger and when it fails it stays together and just gets mangled and dented.
As the KB is cast it DETONATES like a hand grenade at failure.
It's possible to lose the entire engine with cast pistons!

The KB is cast hypereutectic (as are MOST cast are nowadays) and requires 1/2 the piston to bore clearance the J.E. needs

For a street motor below 100hp/L I PREFER cast hyper SHITLOADS over forged.

Constant Hi RPM/combat use and ANY BOOST at all gets switched to a forged.

The J.E. will COME with in 1 gram of each other and the machine work is "to die for".

The KB will hit +/- 5 grams and really should be hand balanced.

The J.E. uses 1mm rings and the KB uses fatter. The J.E. is more critical to bore surface finish but if a good seal is gained it will have half the piston ring drag force of the KB stuff.

Often times a loose forged skinny ring set up needs POSITVE crankcase evacuation to assist in improving ring seal. A dry sump oil system ore a dedicated vacuum pump for the engine is employed.

Forged is overkill for a street based naturally aspirated application and requires fully warming the engine (Oil TEMP!) before going WFO.

My experience is water pumper and getting the coolant temp to show "normal" doesn't mean shit. The oil temp is how to know your $$$$ killer forged street engine can be hammered.

The pinnacle of this type of BS is the F1 engines of the past. Some of them would be plugged into an oil warmer that circulated hot oil though the engine.
OVERNIGHT!!!!!

That's a ninja's take on the above pistons. The JE are 2 to three times the cost of the KB. The KB are lighter and will allow a longer rod.
The KB require more work for installation and the thicker rings are more forgiving of a less than flawless bore surface.

Ninja guess...
The JE have JUST been unwrapped for the first time and still show debris in the ring lands.
It's hurts to see!
I'd be a deburring bitch because of that.
All of my JE applications have NOT required any prep or balancing.
I like Wiseco nearly as well.

I would LOVE the Supertech pistons available in the high silicon material EXCEPT every single Supertech I have messed with are dimensionally incorrect and have huge variations in them.

I'm having to accept less than optimal quench in a Supertech equipped Mazda Miata BP due to casting variations which are NOT easily machinable.
"Deck height" varies .015" which is the largest variation I have ever encountered even in stock crap.
The bores are perfect, the engine had 2K miles on it and YES, I did install NEW rings and had the bores plateau honed,,,

I would still like to throw them in the trash...

The KB in the photo is for a Harley motorcycle. Probably not available from EMW.

The motor for the JE pistons has nickies cylinders.

Yes, the pistons are brand new and will have coated piston crowns and DFL on the skirts (already have the materials for this procedure). So, yes there will be more work going into these pistons before installation

This is the sheet that Mark Howard sent over to me. KB pistons for EVO 1200 & 883/1200 conversions
looking around on the web for pistons for this conversion there where some very pretty good looking pistons. Very PRETTY

Bob B

[Jack Standz]

@Burton73

Thanks for the piston information/sheet.

[930cabman]

Might consider having this professionally built.

It looks like you've got the right stuff and she has the potential be a screamer