Tear Down and Reassemble Unstarted 1.7 built to 2270, 1.7 to 2270 Unstarted 10 Year Old Build Options

[Robroe]

Here's a thought I just had...

What if the crankshaft end play was .0045 to .0052 and Rodroe is just really, really BAD at reading dial indicators?

He had ALL three shims and still reported .040-.052.

I don't think that is possible either...

His end play is excellent, and his dial indicator readings were with .0007 of each other makes far more sense.

Hey Rob, the number of decimals PAST the dot is STUPID important!

Was the clearance a tiny little "click" that you can feel but not really see or a significant movement you could see?

We want the tiny little click...
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The crank movement was large and loud. I could measure it with my tape measure. I would have preferred the little click. Was hoping I was wrong too.

Got the case split today thanks to your help. The cam and lifters are a Webcam Raby 2500. Crank is marked 78 mm and stamped 106299 on one of the counterbalances. The rods are marked VW 5.158".

[Robroe]

Case pictures.

[technicalninja]

Oops!
Sorry for the insult!

If you could see it that's BAD!

I'm a believer in setting end play with rear main seal OUT and no 0-ring.

Those can skew results.

Seals and O-ring at final assembly only.

Pick those little bearing dowels out.

Those puppies will FALL out and you'll be hunting them.

When I take stuff down I re-install ALL of the hardware exactly as I removed it.

My cases have every single fastener in them.

Crap that I cannot affix I'll have in a small freezer zip lock bag.

If you label the bag first with a Sharpie 20 years from now it will still make sense...

Do it that way and you don't have to remember SHIT!
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[Robroe]

Crank and Cam Pictures

[Robroe]

Rods Bearings Lifters pictures

Does this case appear to be clearanced? [attachmentid=917
731]

[Superhawk996]

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Well the good news is that the internals are clean and the cam barely has wiped off the parkerized coating.

My first order of business would be to try to understand why there is so much crank end play. Typically it is about 1mm without shims. You seem to have about 50% more play than that. Is there anything mis-machined at the crank end that interfaces with the thrust bearings. It may all be OK and can be shimmed - now is the time to look to see if you can understand root cause.

Good to see they did use a double thrust cam bearing.

Good stuff in there.

Hopefully just as simple as confirming, operational clearance between case and moving components, bearing clearances (rod and mains), rod end play, and balance (highly recommended). Then, clean and reassemble.

Am I correct in remembering that you didn’t have any issues spinning the crank when the heads were removed?

[Robroe]

Plan to send case to a machine shop today for hot tanking to get really clean. When back I'll start trial assembly and measure how crank/cam fit. Will watch Jake and Ian's videos again first. Was considering not taking the rods off the crank. Just check torque on rod caps, clean up with brake cleaner and then insert lots of oil. Or, I could take the rods off and do a thorough cleaning of all oil passages and reassemble. Do the cam bearings look usable?

[Superhawk996]

From pictures I’m don’t think I see the Raby Rear Main Seal drain back modification . I’d do that while case is split.

[Superhawk996]

Personally, I’d check at least one rod for clearance.

As an alternative you can check the split main bearing with Plastigage and if that is good, maybe feel safer that rods are OK?

Cam bearings seem to just have had the tin protective plating wiped off based on appearance. Again, those can be measured with Platigage if there is any question on clearance.

The issue is that now is the time to be 100% sure. It would be a waste to have done all this, start the engine, hear a rod knocking and then have to tear down. Agree - not likely, but at this stage it’s easy to be sure.

Case doesn’t appear to be clearanced to me. Those grind marks at lifter bores are typical of casting flash clean up. Just mockup and make sure you have clearance to all rotating / moving parts (crank, cam, rods, lifters).

Note: don’t assume oil galleys were previously cleaned or that hot tanking will clean them. Galley brushes and brake cleaner until you are sure they are clean.

[technicalninja]

I'd rattle all of the rods back and forth.

Get a FEEL for how much angularity they all have.

If you've got bad ones, you can often see/feel it.

All the same?

Pull and plastigauge one only.

Use brand NEW plastigauge!

[rhodyguy]

With the internal oil baffles, a newer 2.0 case? What is the case stamping #? You should ensure the case deck is true. Jake’s go to case these days, as I understand it, is the earlier 1.7 due to saddle? collapse.

[technicalninja]

His case has the thicker case registers.

That part is fine.

[914sgofast2]

In looking at the cam, I noticed that there are no lock washers of any style under the cam gear bolts. Aren't there supposed to be some type of lock washers under those bolts?

My Webcam kit (bought from the Type 4 Store) came with lock washers for them. What's the consensus of the 914World brain test on this issue. If you are not going to use any lock washers, should you use red lactate on those cam gear bolts for peace of mind?

As to the origins of the case, that is an EA series engine case with the cast in supports for the oil windage tray, so it is from a later 1.7 liter engine, not a 2 liter engine. One of the better cases to use when building a big bore engine, although Jake Ray says that the earliest 1.7 liter cases are the very best because they have no openings at all in the main bearing saddle webs like the later cases do.

[Superhawk996]

In looking at the cam, I noticed that there are no lock washers of any style under the cam gear bolts. Aren't there supposed to be some type of lock washers under those bolts?

My Webcam kit (bought from the Type 4 Store) came with lock washers for them. What's the consensus of the 914World brain test on this issue. If you are not going to use any lock washers, should you use red lactate on those cam gear bolts for peace of mind?

Common helical coil style lock washers are useless. See the NASA white paper for details on other styles of lock washers.

A properly torqued fastener doesn’t need a lock washer. Would rather see a flange head bolt used instead of plain hex head but I’ve also seen plain hex head used on these cam gear bolts for years without issues.

Personally, I do use red loctite on the cam gear bolts at assembly as insurance.

NASA Fastener Design Manual, 1990 excerpt:



https://ntrs.nasa.gov/api/citations/1990000...19900009424.pdf

[Superhawk996]

Previous post does being up valid topic though. What does the cylinder side of the case look like?

Any evidence that the deck was machined for flatness?

Easy to use a straight edge and feeler gauge to verify the cylinder mating surfaces are flat. A little bit more difficult to verify that they are parallel to the crank but this too can be checked pretty easily on a surface plate.

Not sure what resources OP has for inspection tools.

[Jack Standz]

You asked about case clearancing. Generally, 78mm stroke cranks don't require clearancing. Larger strokes tend to be the ones with problems. But, you'll still need to check during mock-up procedures. Couldn't see any evidence of clearancing in your photos.

You gave a photo of the cam gear and fasteners. Here it looks like you should spend some time. The cam bolts can hit the oil pump. Included here is a photo of a cam gear with clearance fastener pockets and low profile heads. Best to use loctite.

And check the backside of the cam bolts to case clearance. If too long they can contact the case, so shorten them.

[technicalninja]

Previous post does being up valid topic though. What does the cylinder side of the case look like?

Any evidence that the deck was machined for flatness?

Easy to use a straight edge and feeler gauge to verify the cylinder mating surfaces are flat. A little bit more difficult to verify that they are parallel to the crank but this too can be checked pretty easily on a surface plate.

Not sure what resources OP has for inspection tools.

In Jake's engine case video, he stated that EVERY case shows un-evenness here.

He said casting sag might be the reason. Aluminum casting can change dimensions slightly with age.

If you don't see evidence of fresh milling, I'd automatically have it done due to his comments...

These pups are old enough now to have shit like casting sag as problems.

Another reason my inner self says "don't even try to build something older than your children"...

Video in question
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=siPS_EBLxLY

Well worth watching...

[Robroe]

From pictures I’m don’t think I see the Raby Rear Main Seal drain back modification . I’d do that while case is split.

Can you point me to Rabys Rear Main Seal drain back modification? Tried searching but haven’t found anything except reference to it, not what it is or how to do it. Thanks!

[technicalninja]

7 minute mark in the above video I linked show it.

Two v shaped groves at the rear main seal bore.

I believe he cuts them with a triangular file.

Additional drain back paths for the rear main seal.

Even MORE important if you're using a high pressure/high volume oil pump (which you should be!).

Reason for the top one is to allow an air path. You NEED both for it to work properly.

[Superhawk996]

He discusses it further at 11:55 mark