Cross roads between a big /4 and a big/6, Share your experience Options

[tomeric914]

My reasons for going with a 6 nearly 15 years ago came about with oil pump starvation on long sweepers like the carousel at Watkins Glen. It was less expensive to buy a big port 3.0 back then than it was to build a dry sump system for the 4 cylinder.

I started with a carb setup purchased from @EricShea that needed some love and rebuilding and then switched to a 3.2 manifold with MegaSquirt fuel injection.

[930cabman]

I think the linkage affects the ratio of pedal travel to throttle travel. I haven’t measured but on my own cars, I’d like to get rid of the “coat hanger”

Try to get in a 914-6. Like I mentioned previously, you can’t just compare HP between the engines. Just like a 911 drives differently than a 914, the engine impacts the character of the car. I wish the six engine wasn’t heavier but the way you can use the engine to drive the car can mitigate a lot of the issue.

A big four basically bolts in the same way the old engine comes out. A six requires work to every system to get it fitted and running and realistically $10-20k in additional parts to get it done. But it’s a fun journey if you decide to do it. It’s hard to beat the sound of a six.

I like the 2.7 recently installed, took a bit over a year, a bundle of $$ and many details to work out. I used the PMS throttle cable with a slight modification, couldn't deal with the coat hanger. I kept the narrow body with 175-15 tires and she still has that light feel with a nice kick

[Montreal914]

I think the linkage affects the ratio of pedal travel to throttle travel. I haven’t measured but on my own cars, I’d like to get rid of the “coat hanger”

Try to get in a 914-6. Like I mentioned previously, you can’t just compare HP between the engines. Just like a 911 drives differently than a 914, the engine impacts the character of the car. I wish the six engine wasn’t heavier but the way you can use the engine to drive the car can mitigate a lot of the issue.

A big four basically bolts in the same way the old engine comes out. A six requires work to every system to get it fitted and running and realistically $10-20k in additional parts to get it done. But it’s a fun journey if you decide to do it. It’s hard to beat the sound of a six.

I like the 2.7 recently installed, took a bit over a year, a bundle of $$ and many details to work out. I used the PMS throttle cable with a slight modification, couldn't deal with the coat hanger. I kept the narrow body with 175-15 tires and she still has that light feel with a nice kick

2.7 with skinny tires, well that must be fun (IMG:style_emoticons/default/driving.gif)

I did look at the PMS cable, but from its description, it felt llike this was a replacement of the cable only and required the rest of the /6 mechanism. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif)

From what you are saying, is the PMS cable going directly to the TB/carb linkage at the engine and completely replaces the bell crank/coat hanger? If so, this seems much simpler, priced with the PMS tax, but still a lot less than $500, and mostly a lot simpler.


Thank you for the input (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

[mepstein]

I’m pretty sure @sirAndy used a PMS cable on his 3.6 build.
Call PMS and ask for David. He’s very familiar with their products. I just spent $6k with them for a twin plug kit and some cams and he was very helpful.

[Cairo94507]

I used the PMS throttle cable on my 3.6 conversion; works well. and no issues to install.

[tomeric914]

https://www.terrycable.com/Throttle-cable-f...otor_p_303.html

I had them add 6" to it because I made my own bracket

[SirAndy]

I’m pretty sure @sirAndy used a PMS cable on his 3.6 build.
Call PMS and ask for David. He’s very familiar with their products. I just spent $6k with them for a twin plug kit and some cams and he was very helpful.

Yes, i did. No bell crank transmission reverse lever action bullshit, just a nice long cable routed around the rear and looping up to the throttle body.
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/driving.gif)

[Montreal914]

Great! A couple of options on the table, PMS and custom Terry cable. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sunglasses.gif) Duly noted, thank you! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/pray.gif)

Things are really starting to shape up here! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[930cabman]

Great! A couple of options on the table, PMS and custom Terry cable. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sunglasses.gif) Duly noted, thank you! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/pray.gif)

Things are really starting to shape up here! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

The PMS throttle cable did work, with modification. The core was about 1 1/2" too long. PMS did not reply to my request regarding this, what else is new.

In the future I will contact the folks at Terry

Best of luck with your build, which ever road you take

[wndsrfr]

Great! A couple of options on the table, PMS and custom Terry cable. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sunglasses.gif) Duly noted, thank you! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/pray.gif)

Things are really starting to shape up here! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

901 Shop in Florida has a very direct straight shot cable system. Literally straight from the gas pedal through the firewall to the throttle cross bar. I can't remember the price but it's excellent for my track car. Call for Brady there..772-781-2944 and he'll send you pics.
That said, I've tried the backside loop approach after getting failures of the "coat hanger". I found that the factory system has a lot going for it in terms of progressive action at partial throttle movement which is the majority of street driving plus it provides full open WOT action when set up properly. The geometry of the bellcrank at the rear of the transmission allows slow opening of the throttle plates during first 25% of gas pedal movement then progressively faster for the rest of travel to WOT. So if you're wanting good street manners I vote for the factory system---BUT getting the correct coat hanger part is a PITA...

[Montreal914]

Great! A couple of options on the table, PMS and custom Terry cable. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sunglasses.gif) Duly noted, thank you! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/pray.gif)

Things are really starting to shape up here! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

901 Shop in Florida has a very direct straight shot cable system. Literally straight from the gas pedal through the firewall to the throttle cross bar. I can't remember the price but it's excellent for my track car. Call for Brady there..772-781-2944 and he'll send you pics.
That said, I've tried the backside loop approach after getting failures of the "coat hanger". I found that the factory system has a lot going for it in terms of progressive action at partial throttle movement which is the majority of street driving plus it provides full open WOT action when set up properly. The geometry of the bellcrank at the rear of the transmission allows slow opening of the throttle plates during first 25% of gas pedal movement then progressively faster for the rest of travel to WOT. So if you're wanting good street manners I vote for the factory system---BUT getting the correct coat hanger part is a PITA...

@wndsrfr Geometry! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sunglasses.gif) Ha! This is a nice piece of information!

Now that would be a very valid reason to have engineered such a complex system (bell cranck). Thank you for sharing this 3rd cable option. This will be a well maneured (IMG:style_emoticons/default/unsure.gif) street car. I could understand why I may want to consider the complex lever system now. I will weigh my option in due time. Thanks! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smilie_pokal.gif)

[horizontally-opposed]

The "Deep Six" and "7R" is "the" wheel fitment for a narrow body super car. the offset on the face is identical so the 7 in the back looks just like the 6 up front. We have the same tires on the above car that I have on my RS pictured below. 205 up front and 215 in the back.

Been thinking about having my deep six rears widened to 7Rs, and this pretty much seals it. Tire package on your 911 looks fantastic—what tire are you running that's 205 & 215?

It's time for tires, and there very few interesting choices for a narrow 914 if you want to stagger the tires. Have been mulling 185/70R15 P6000 for the 15x6 up front with 195/65R15 P6000 for the 15x7 rear. Not as nice as running 215 rears, but looks like it'll go in a lot easier and I can always play with the fenders later.

The stroker 2258 builds have amazing hp. All with modern EFI. The new intake is wrapping up. We'll begin testing next week. Sneak Peek here first.

^ This look fantastic! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smilie_pokal.gif)

[horizontally-opposed]

A while back I remember reading a comment from Pete Stout @horizontally-opposed , where I recall him saying somethnig like he felt the 914 has a better balance with a 4 cylinder engine, but he was willing to make that tradeoff to have the sound, smoothness and pleasure of a 6 cylinder. That being said, his beautiful car (reference narrow body in my book (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wub.gif) ) is equipped with a small 2.2 six.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/wub.gif)

Thank you, and so many good inputs on this thread from people with solid experience with these cars. Also like the way you have laid out the inputs you're considering, particularly with an eye to powertrain weight.

You really can't go wrong with either of your choices, and I got down to the very same choices until an old high-school-era friend offered me a deal on a 2.2 six and conversion I couldn't pass up—which was nice 2270 money plus a list of parts and elbow grease to convert the car with him on nights and weekends. Worth it for the last item alone, and the engine hasn't had to come out for more than a decade now and still makes me smile often. You also remember my takeaways from owning the car as a (slow) four for 20 years and then a small ~190hp six...it was lighter and handled a little better (more about momentum and more "flickable") as a four but the six adds so much more dimensionality to the car—it goes from simple sports car intended for the segment served by Fiat 124s and MGs back then and Miatas today to something much closer to a 911 or Dino (but still not same due to layout and materials/finishes).

I'd still have a tough time making the call now, and it would probably be tipped one way or the other by the same inputs it was then: What's the better deal? What will I enjoy more, more of the time? I am completely satisfied with the 2.2 E/S for how I use the car, but could also see loving a big four or a 3.2 in a narrow 914.

The car will be converted to 5 lugs using the right 3" 911 struts/hubs and drilled rear hubs. The braking system is Alfa Brembo calipers in the front and 914-6 reproduction rears with appropriate 19mm MC. Sport Bilstein all around and 140 rear springs. Front 19mm and std rear sway bar.

^ So that's the setup that's been in my 914 for the last 10 years and not enough miles since new everything but the rear springs, save Bilstein HDs instead of Sports (recommended by everyone I spoke to, from Eric Shea to the late Billy McNair to Marco Gerace).

It works well, and worked well when the car was an 80hp four and works well with a 190-hp small six. Because I'm dumb and/or have a damper fetish, I may be moving to an "overkill" brake and damper setup. So, depending on your timing, my complete strut/damper/rear spring/brake/MC setup could be available.

I have never riden let alone driven a 6 cylinder powered 914, but I do have 10 years of daily California canyon driving mine (4 cylinder 2056). I know how the 4 cylinder car feels and I can probably picture how it would drive with a large /4.

I can't help with a good big four, but you'd be welcome to visit and go for a ride & drive in the "reference" car (careful about meeting your heroes and all that, as it's really just another old car/work in progress). (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Eric_Shea]

The "Deep Six" and "7R" is "the" wheel fitment for a narrow body super car. the offset on the face is identical so the 7 in the back looks just like the 6 up front. We have the same tires on the above car that I have on my RS pictured below. 205 up front and 215 in the back.

Been thinking about having my deep six rears widened to 7Rs, and this pretty much seals it. Tire package on your 911 looks fantastic—what tire are you running that's 205 & 215?

It's time for tires, and there very few interesting choices for a narrow 914 if you want to stagger the tires. Have been mulling 185/70R15 P6000 for the 15x6 up front with 195/65R15 P6000 for the 15x7 rear. Not as nice as running 215 rears, but looks like it'll go in a lot easier and I can always play with the fenders later.

The stroker 2258 builds have amazing hp. All with modern EFI. The new intake is wrapping up. We'll begin testing next week. Sneak Peek here first.

^ This look fantastic! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smilie_pokal.gif)

Hi Pete,

Stay Deep 6 up front and go 7R in the rear. Mark bought Falken 205/60-15's for the front and 215/60-15's for the rear. There is a 1/2" spacer under the rear wheels to get them off the inner fender well. Fenders are rolled and "ever so slightly" pulled. Not noticeable.

Thanks on the EFI. The goal is to have 3 packages available for every stock Type 4 (plus modified engines sized to ?.?) by the end of the year.

1. Basic - This would augment your current system (1.7, 1.8 or 2.0) with modern EFI. The look would be hard to distinguish from stock. Self learning.
2. RetroCarb - Which would replace or implement a simple dual carb looking system with a hand throttle and two Heritage "carb look" units, self learning, and...
3. FullPlenum - What you see here. Single throttle body, custom volumetric designed plenums, IAC, MAP all modern and self learning.

Food for thought. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

P.S. Car is back for some RRC tuning. 215 on 7R look...

[seanpaulmc]

@Montreal914 congrats and Godspeed on the Six conversion! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/popcorn[1].gif)

[ConeDodger]

I think the sweet spot for the 914 is a 3.2L /6 with FI, it just feels like they all should have come with one. It's a perfect fit to the car.
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/driving.gif)


PS: And for a street driven 914, the 3.2L doesn't need a front mounted oil cooler, the stock oil cooler works just fine.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif)

I wouldn’t hesitate to drive mine anywhere. It feels absolutely reliable.

[Montreal914]

Quick update to share that yes, I got the 3.2 with a bunch of nice goodies, many of which I will be seelling as I have equivalent or simply will not need them.

I want to thank you all for the great inputs. As for the very few that suggested the big /4, I am a little sad that I will not be building this engine. After having buit my 2056 a few years back, I was really looking forward building it.

So the /6 conversion starts! Well, that is after I get everything sorted in my garage... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wacko.gif)

You will be able to follow it in my build thread here in a while... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)
http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?sho...=349463&hl=


Here are the leakdown test results. This engine hasn't been ran for many years. Some good some ok values. Hopefully some of the OK values are due to it not having ran in a while. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif)














And plugs looked all like this: