First start after 25 years - problems Options

[technicalninja]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif)

You'll use that borescope to check for rust in the longs AND take a harsh look at the clutch cable BULL SHIT in the tunnel.
This crap breaks loose of its mountings and causes all sorts of mischief.

Lots of folks have trouble here...

[spencercanon]

Thanks again everyone for the responses. All my wrenching experience is on Lotus, Rovers Fords, and MGs, and I really appreciate how intuitive and well-built everything is. I formally did some Formula Ford and small bore racing so I work pretty quickly when the time comes. That said, I have much more to report now that I've dug back into the engine:

1) the plenum and cylinder #4 were full of fuel. I find it unlikely that both are stuck open mechanically in the same way and now think that perhaps both are grounded in the ECU so they never close. Does that make sense?

2) The rocker arm/ valve gap adjustment issue: I pulled one of the rocker arm sets off and was surprised to find that the pushrods have some spring back. I can push them in 2-3mm with a finger. I expected that with only a cam follower and cam on the other end that there wouldn't be anything that could make the pushrod feel spongy. I assume that's hydraulic pressure from trapped oil?

3) I physically verified #1 TDC and the distributor is 180 off. Is it that easy to install the distributor drive shaft backwards??

[technicalninja]

If you pull the pushrod tubes (you need to change the o-rings if you haven't) you can pull the lifters out...

Keep them indexed, clocking doesn't matter but put those puppies back into their same holes!

You shouldn't have hydros.

If I found hydros (some bus engines I think) that would be that for me.

Full tear down and inspection...

On the gear drive. Yes, it's possible. I know for a fact when I pulled the distributor on a core engine I bought and turned the crank the distributor drive gear climbed up the gear and dropped back in on the next tooth.

Made a weird "clack" that I immediately researched.

But a full 180 out might be you're seeing TDC wrong.

Notice the weird ass cylinder numbering sequence?
That can lead you down the primrose path easily...

Verify the cylinder opposite the one you're checking in the firing order has BOTH valves slightly loaded.

A cylinder at TDC "EXHAUST" would appear exactly as you have described...

[technicalninja]

The L-jet FI system has a "cold start" injector in the plenum.

This is fed power when on and the ground goes through a thermo-time switch.

The colder this is the longer it fires the injector.

This COULD be the source of the extra fuel.

The 4 injectors can too.

I'd pressurize the rail assembled WITHOUT any electrical connections first.

Replacing the injectors and cold start valve is a common thing to do.

Regardless of what I found in the FI system I would do my initial start / prove the engine good on the carb spray with the fuel system disabled.

Get a fuel pressure gauge. Critical to have pressure correct on the L-jet.

Edit: If you have a vacuum referenced FP regulator (I believe you do) those can rupture the internal diaphragm and pump fuel at high pressure into the vacuum line which attaches in the plenum.
The L-jet adjusts fuel pressure to manifold pressure. The static pressure (36psi??) will drop 8-10 psi at 21" of vacuum.
This is one of the reasons to get a decent FP gauge.

I may have the pressures wrong for Porsche, I have a bunch of L-jet experience on Nissan L-series (280Zs).

[spencercanon]

It would be just like me to get the cyl numbering wrong but I triple checked and the piston is all the way up and both valves are fully closed. The flywheel line is visible through top window. This is on the cylinder nearest the flywheel opposite the distributor (pic attached).


The lifters have a lot of give actually... up to 5mm. I'm going to have to look at one because that must mean they're hydraulic, right? This is a 1.8 "EC" stamped engine (not a bus) so they must be aftermarket!

[technicalninja]

You're good. Make sure the valves on cylinder#3 are under load (slightly open).

Now, if you really have hydros in there, you're going to need to research exactly how to adjust them.

It's NOTHING like mechanicals...

When I have no procedure, I'll take one apart, clear all of the oil out of it and "plot" it's total available travel from push rod contact until it goes solid.

Count the number of turns/degrees at the adjuster.

Then I'll choose a point 60% of travel from solid and try that.

That will usually work with most hydraulic lifters, but I'd do a bunch of research before going with my "gut". I'd also want to verify the "published" adjustment procedure placed the adjustment somewhere in the middle of the range anyway.

I'd REALLY want to find out anything I could about the previous owner who had the engine done. I'd want "history" on that badly.

There is a small chance it could be good stuff...

[spencercanon]

I'd REALLY want to find out anything I could about the previous owner who had the engine done. I'd want "history" on that badly.

I'm VERY curious as to what's been done to the engine as well! I do know that the PO autocrossed it at some point. A few SCCA ribbons and some magnetic numbers were in the trunk. Unfortunately the previous owner is now very elderly was unable to provide any detail. The car was stored in a garage in Big Pine, California. An area that gets only a few inches of rain a year so the perfect place to store a car. However, it's also an area where there are a lot of people who can build an engine, but few who would have known the ins and outs of a VW engine... so I don't think I can fully trust that it's been rebuilt properly.

Thank you again for the suggestions. I will certainly research the lifter adjustment.

For the fuel flooding, I realized that the #4 cylinder probably flooded because its intake pipe was the lowest point of the plenum. So the cold start injector is probably the culprit for all the flooding. And I suppose all I can do about the distributor orientation, is swap the plug wires around. With all those issues addressed, I'm feeling cautiously optimistic that the old girl will fire up!

-Spence

[worn]

"Will it start", "Does it turn over"

I never understood that logic.


Take an engine that has sat for 5/10/15/20/25/+ years and the first thing people do is try to "turn it over".

If there was even a hint of moisture or corrosion in that engine (likely) you just ruined all the bearings and possibly scratched the rings, pistons and cylinders.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif)

Sorry if this hijacks the thread, but when Sir Andy speaks I listen. Given the time warp, what should a person do first. That is even after mounting carburetors.

[Jack Standz]

I'd REALLY want to find out anything I could about the previous owner who had the engine done. I'd want "history" on that badly.

I'm VERY curious as to what's been done to the engine as well! I do know that the PO autocrossed it at some point. A few SCCA ribbons and some magnetic numbers were in the trunk. Unfortunately the previous owner is now very elderly was unable to provide any detail. The car was stored in a garage in Big Pine, California. An area that gets only a few inches of rain a year so the perfect place to store a car. However, it's also an area where there are a lot of people who can build an engine, but few who would have known the ins and outs of a VW engine... so I don't think I can fully trust that it's been rebuilt properly.

Thank you again for the suggestions. I will certainly research the lifter adjustment.

For the fuel flooding, I realized that the #4 cylinder probably flooded because its intake pipe was the lowest point of the plenum. So the cold start injector is probably the culprit for all the flooding. And I suppose all I can do about the distributor orientation, is swap the plug wires around. With all those issues addressed, I'm feeling cautiously optimistic that the old girl will fire up!

-Spence

Sure swap the plug wires, the FI is batch fire anyway. But, you'll really want to install the distributor and distributor drive properly. And you'll really want to figure out the other problems too. You probably already know this, but all that fuel in the cylinder(s) could hydro-lock the motor, which can break things. Things like that can ruin your day. So, you'll probably want to figure out if it's the CS injector or why all the fuel, before you even try to crank it again.

Assuming your firing order is really 180 degrees off (or is that 360 degrees? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) ), fortunately, it's fairly easy to correct if it's the distributor drive that's installed incorrectly. Take a retrieval tool with a strong magnet or a VW distributor drive removal tool and pull it out and put back in turned 180 degrees.

[Superhawk996]

If you pull the pushrod tubes (you need to change the o-rings if you haven't) you can pull the lifters out...



You shouldn't have hydros.

If I found hydros (some bus engines I think) that would be that for me.

Full tear down and inspection...

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif)

Personally I’m with SirAndy, it’s usually a bad plan trying to start a horizontally opposed engine after it’s been sitting this long. Horizontal cylinders are very prone to rust and pitting.

There is enough going on with this thread / engine that I’d disassemble it just to be certain of what you’re dealing with, to replace seals, etc.

But people think I’m (IMG:style_emoticons/default/screwy.gif) so take that for what it’s worth.

[930cabman]

If you pull the pushrod tubes (you need to change the o-rings if you haven't) you can pull the lifters out...



You shouldn't have hydros.

If I found hydros (some bus engines I think) that would be that for me.

Full tear down and inspection...

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif)

Personally I’m with SirAndy, it’s usually a bad plan trying to start a horizontally opposed engine after it’s been sitting this long. Horizontal cylinders are very prone to rust and pitting.

There is enough going on with this thread / engine that I’d disassemble it just to be certain of what you’re dealing with, to replace seals, etc.

But people think I’m (IMG:style_emoticons/default/screwy.gif) so take that for what it’s worth.

Disagree with Hawk here ( (IMG:style_emoticons/default/screwy.gif) ), generally an engineer will take the safe bet, that would be teardown

[technicalninja]

I am not an engineer.
I am a Technician!

The OP IS AS WELL!!!!

He'll do fine on a tear down and learn a bunch of stuff in the process.

And the puppy is already out!

This is really the point that decides "Gear Head" over "wannabe" IMO.

He passed with flying colors!

Welcome to the STRANGENESS Spencer!

As far as I'm concerned, you're a GEAR HEAD!

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/ninja.gif)

Start ripping it down...

Interesting point with this critter, His BIG car is a 914!

Edit: on the distributor drive, easy to change with a magnet, you won't have trouble BUT!!!
There is a baby thrust washer underneath that that you can dislodge. Make sure it's right before you install the drive.

[technicalninja]

If we're all wrong and your engine is fine, you WILL have the option of merely re-assembling it.

I've got 40+ year's experience with import engine repair (Mostly Japanese stuff) and 3 times I've "put it back together" without ANY new parts other than gaskets.
I held ASE "master machinist" credentials (4 recerts) until they DROPPED "machinist" as a category.
The "machinist" tests were the hardest of all (They still weren't very difficult).
They (The ASE) replaced the entire machinist testing with "Parts Person" and they have a "Master Parts Person" now as well. Looks like it was a "money" decision on the part of ASE.

Two of those times were for budgetary reasons on NAV (negative actual value) vehicles.

But once I did a VW "water boxer" in a Westfalia. This was not a budget restrained job but it WAS time sensitive. It started as a head gasket failure and once out we decided to do a simple ring job as well. The original rings were in pretty good shape just absolutely clogged with oil/water milkshake and old carbon (oil control rings).
Aftermarket rings were wrong, and factory rings were 6+ WEEKS away!!!

I am an anal-retentive bitch and keep EVERYTHING indexed for position (including hardware) so I was able to accurately re-install those rings in their original positions after carb dipping them and detailing.

You REALLY don't want to get into a water boxer. I will refuse the next one. Massively complicated water jackets and a bunch of other weird shit.

It worked out FINE!

If you're careful and the parts are in good shape it IS possible to "do" an engine without hard parts...

If you're doing a T4 even a single time I would suggest getting a cheap engine adaptor like this one.
https://aapistons.com/products/bench-mount-...ASABEgKw1fD_BwE

This will slide into a normal engine stand.
There are better ones available; more arms/more better.
That $50 one will work fine for limited use. I'd be carefull about holding a fully dressed T4 on it but for a cases/jugs/heads asembly it's what I use.

[Root_Werks]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/popcorn[1].gif)

From some of the posts, almost sounds like this 1.8 could have hydraulic lifters.

[ctc911ctc]

Please say it was sarcasm, Hydraulic ? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/dry.gif)

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

It would be just like me to get the cyl numbering wrong but I triple checked and the piston is all the way up and both valves are fully closed. The flywheel line is visible through top window. This is on the cylinder nearest the flywheel opposite the distributor (pic attached).


The lifters have a lot of give actually... up to 5mm. I'm going to have to look at one because that must mean they're hydraulic, right? This is a 1.8 "EC" stamped engine (not a bus) so they must be aftermarket!

[Jack Standz]

Good point by TechnicalNinja about the distributor drive. If the motor actually has a mis-installed distributor drive, when you pull the drive to clock it 180 degrees, be careful.

There's a small washer that rides on the bottom of the distributor drive shaft. When you pull out the drive, that little washer can fall into your engine case. It's an easy mistake to make and one you want to avoid.

That makes for a bad time trying to fish it out. When you reinstall the drive, use some assembly grease or a dab of super glue to attach it to the bottom of the drive, so it doesn't fall into the case when you reinstall the drive.

[emerygt350]

But it ran....

[Superhawk996]

But it ran....

Until it didn’t (IMG:style_emoticons/default/happy11.gif)

This issue of “ran” or “runs” is a red herring.

Engines run on 2 cylinders - sometime even 1 but that doesn’t mean they are operating properly.

Engines that backfire are by definition not running properly.

I’m not sure exactly when this turned into a distributor being out 180 discussion / cylinder numbering discussion but that probably does reinforce that pictures are worth 1000 words. Haynes Manual covers installation of dizzy as well as photo of the proper dizzy drive orientation.

[Artfrombama]

3) I physically verified #1 TDC and the distributor is 180 off. Is it that easy to install the distributor drive shaft backwards??

Please excuse me if I'm reading this wrong.....
But the piston is at TDC twice per power cycle, once on exhaust stroke and once on compression.
If the piston is on TDC exhaust stroke the rotor button will be 180* out.

[technicalninja]

3) I physically verified #1 TDC and the distributor is 180 off. Is it that easy to install the distributor drive shaft backwards??

Please excuse me if I'm reading this wrong.....
But the piston is at TDC twice per power cycle, once on exhaust stroke and once on compression.
If the piston is on TDC exhaust stroke the rotor button will be 180* out.

You are correct!

If you put it in 180 out (this is 360 degrees crankshaft movement) and merely swap the wires two positions it will run just fine.

I'm not sure he was 180 out if it ran 10 seconds. If he was, I think he was ALSO wired 180 out.

I made a previous post "TDC exhaust would appear exactly as he described."

Folks get tunnel-visioned about timing. That's the easy shit.

Far more concerning is the possibility of hydros, of a valve hanging open, of a broken valve spring, and FOR SURE massive fuel flooding.

The list could be long...

Ignition is way down this list in my book

In this case the engine is already out and partially stripped NOW.

From the most recent picture I'd be less than 1 hour away from having the heads stripped to castings, jugs and pistons off, be able to "semi" test rod bearings via the wiggle test and exposing the cam lifters and lobes for inspection.

In his case there is NO WAY I wouldn't tear at least the top end down for inspection...

I'd guess there is a 75%+ chance I'd go the rest of the way, probably couldn't resist!

You know what will really pisses me off?

Having to do stuff twice!