First start after 25 years - problems Options

[Artfrombama]

3) I physically verified #1 TDC and the distributor is 180 off. Is it that easy to install the distributor drive shaft backwards??

Please excuse me if I'm reading this wrong.....
But the piston is at TDC twice per power cycle, once on exhaust stroke and once on compression.
If the piston is on TDC exhaust stroke the rotor button will be 180* out.

If you put it in 180 out (this is 360 degrees crankshaft movement) and merely swap the wires two positions it will run just fine.

WHOOOOSH!
Right over his head

[VaccaRabite]

3) I physically verified #1 TDC and the distributor is 180 off. Is it that easy to install the distributor drive shaft backwards??

Please excuse me if I'm reading this wrong.....
But the piston is at TDC twice per power cycle, once on exhaust stroke and once on compression.
If the piston is on TDC exhaust stroke the rotor button will be 180* out.

If you put it in 180 out (this is 360 degrees crankshaft movement) and merely swap the wires two positions it will run just fine.

WHOOOOSH!
Right over his head

Nope. Spencer is right on. My old engine ran like that for years. The person that built it before me timed it 180 off. THAT took a moment to figure out. But I just rearraigned the plug wires and was good to go.

Zach

[Geezer914]

I would consider replacing the valve springs and measuring the push rods to verify the correct length.

[technicalninja]

3) I physically verified #1 TDC and the distributor is 180 off. Is it that easy to install the distributor drive shaft backwards??

Please excuse me if I'm reading this wrong.....
But the piston is at TDC twice per power cycle, once on exhaust stroke and once on compression.
If the piston is on TDC exhaust stroke the rotor button will be 180* out.

If you put it in 180 out (this is 360 degrees crankshaft movement) and merely swap the wires two positions it will run just fine.

WHOOOOSH!
Right over his head

@artfrombama
Please let me know what I'm missing.

For the OP.

During top end tear down I'd be looking for evidence of exceptional VS evidence of ineptitude.
Springs or shims on rocker arm shafts. Shims are better.
Adjusters on rocker arms, single or two piece with elephants' foot (911 style). Two piece better
Pushrods- aluminum VS steel. steel is better
Gasket/fire ring between head and jug. Believe it or not, not having this part installed is better.
Another commonly upgraded part is the studs which hold the rocker arms in. Bigger is better here. The stock stuff will work fine but you have to be damn careful to not over torque these as they are prone to pulling the threads out of the head.

When head apart. Exhaust guide huge VS same size as intake. Same size better (at least more modern)
That big ass exhaust guide also means sodium filled exhaust valve.
You REALLY shouldn't machine sodium filled valves.
The world has moved AWAY from sodium filled valves.
It IS possible to have an explosion/fire machining sodium filled valves.

All of the core heads I've torn down now (3 pairs) have had completely trashed exhaust valve guides. Valves are "floppy" loose in the guides.

If you find a bunch of modern or improved parts, then it's possible that someone knowledgeable did the engine.

If someone merely installed hydraulic lifters where solids were supposed to go, then both the cam and lifters are TRASH!

Pulling a lifter will allow you to look into the lifter bore and view the cam lobe. The wear patterns on the lobes would "tell the tale" for me. Nice even wear with no flat spots or weird "ghosting" patterns on the lobes is what I'm looking for.
Normally if someone just swaps in new lifters on an old camshaft it TRASHES the lobes, and you can see the damage easily.

The face of the lifter can show damage as well.

Good Luck
Tell us what you find.

[VaccaRabite]

I meant to add this last night...

There was a time where folks were adding hydraulic lifters to 914 motors because "they don't need to be adjusted..." This was back in the 80s and 90s, even the early 2000s. So its not too surprising that your engine would have them.

Zach

[930cabman]

I meant to add this last night...

There was a time where folks were adding hydraulic lifters to 914 motors because "they don't need to be adjusted..." This was back in the 80s and 90s, even the early 2000s. So its not too surprising that your engine would have them.

Zach

did you mean hydraulic lifters?

[technicalninja]

TLDR: Sodium filled valves are not inherently bad and have earned their place in Automotive world.


I received a PM earlier today from another member regarding the possibility that I was leading folks astray with my disdain for sodium filled valves.

This member, who will remain un-named by me, is a pillar of the 914World community and most of the time he and I are LOCK STEP together in how we see repairs, diagnosis, and basic car stuff altogether.

We are both VERY opinionated and prone to argue when we disagree. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/slap.gif)

I seriously respect his input however and read every single post he makes as often his perspective on an issue is spot on.

When he sent "Hey Bitch, stop dissing SF valves" I took a step back and looked at them through his (and my) eyes a-fresh.
He didn't use "Bitch" which is the proper honorific IMO.

And, truth be told, I've NEVER seen the sodium. Ever! Not once!
You need to realize, I've been rebuilding foreign car engines for DECADES!

I've done shitloads of engines that have sodium filled valves. This is far more common in European vehicles, but I've never seen a burned or broken SF valve.

I've never even thought about this before his comments.


This says they WORK in my book.


And I've seen lots of burned valves, both standard and stainless.

It seems they trash their guides more often which makes sense as the sodium is in there for heat transfer reasons.

He made me ask some questions to myself...

Have I ever had a problem with a SF valve? NO
Know anyone else who has had any issues? NO
Do I know of a single instance of fire regarding these valves? NO

As for machining them. I've personally refaced (lightly) 100+ SF valves myself.
I've been aware of the possible pitfalls and would wear more protective gear when doing them, but I never had ANY ISSUE AT ALL completing the machining.

Also, and this is important, back when they were designed/provisioned "sodium filled" was not only MUCH better for heat transfer it was ALSO more expensive to produce.

Stainless was rare back then (I cannot remember any early stainless that long ago) and what was installed was the best solution for the time.

I intentionally bought a set of used valves out of a GM LS6 engine (2003 ish) because of their weight. Those were hollow stem stainless intakes and sodium filled stainless exhaust. These valves are 5 grams heavier than titanium valves of identical size without the drawbacks of titanium.
And now someone will PM me "Stop dissing titanium, Bitch!" (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

So, even I have sodium filled valves that I fully intend to use...

He was RIGHT!

There is NOTHING wrong with sodium filled valves.
They might be more critical regarding machine work.

Now, if you are having the valves refaced by a machine shop, I would MAKE SURE they were aware of the fact they are sodium filled.
It wouldn't surprise me if most machine shops refused to machine them now-a-days.

And, thinking about this has created a new "thing" for me somewhere down the road.

I WANT to see the sodium, I want to see how far out the valve face the sodium actually goes. I'd bet the sodium recess is more like a bulb than a full faced valve and this would mean there is NO WAY you could actually hit the pocket without cutting 1/3rd the diameter (or more) out of the valve.
I want to drop a chunk of it into water and then ATF.
Why ATF?
Because that is what every valve grinding machine I've ever operated used as a "cutting" fluid.
If it won't ignite in ATF all of the "oh shit be careful" was for naught.

And I LOVE to blow shit up!
Just OUTSIDE the shop...

Now I want to cut up a valve! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/devil.gif)

I have plenty of trashed 2.0L T4 exhaust valves anyway.
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/ninja.gif)

A final thought regarding valve material.
I VASTLY prefer Inconel over everything else at this time.
That material appears to be nearly indestructible.
Inconel is very expensive.
I have no idea if Inconel valves are available for T4s...

[barefoot]

TLDR: Sodium filled valves are not inherently bad and have earned their place in Automotive world.


I received a PM earlier today from another member regarding the possibility that I was leading folks astray with my disdain for sodium filled valves.

This member, who will remain un-named by me, is a pillar of the 914World community and most of the time he and I are LOCK STEP together in how we see repairs, diagnosis, and basic car stuff altogether.

We are both VERY opinionated and prone to argue when we disagree. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/slap.gif)

I seriously respect his input however and read every single post he makes as often his perspective on an issue is spot on.

When he sent "Hey Bitch, stop dissing SF valves" I took a step back and looked at them through his (and my) eyes a-fresh.
He didn't use "Bitch" which is the proper honorific IMO.

And, truth be told, I've NEVER seen the sodium. Ever! Not once!
You need to realize, I've been rebuilding foreign car engines for DECADES!

I've done shitloads of engines that have sodium filled valves. This is far more common in European vehicles, but I've never seen a burned or broken SF valve.

I've never even thought about this before his comments.


This says they WORK in my book.


And I've seen lots of burned valves, both standard and stainless.

It seems they trash their guides more often which makes sense as the sodium is in there for heat transfer reasons.

He made me ask some questions to myself...

Have I ever had a problem with a SF valve? NO
Know anyone else who has had any issues? NO
Do I know of a single instance of fire regarding these valves? NO

As for machining them. I've personally refaced (lightly) 100+ SF valves myself.
I've been aware of the possible pitfalls and would wear more protective gear when doing them, but I never had ANY ISSUE AT ALL completing the machining.

Also, and this is important, back when they were designed/provisioned "sodium filled" was not only MUCH better for heat transfer it was ALSO more expensive to produce.

Stainless was rare back then (I cannot remember any early stainless that long ago) and what was installed was the best solution for the time.

I intentionally bought a set of used valves out of a GM LS6 engine (2003 ish) because of their weight. Those were hollow stem stainless intakes and sodium filled stainless exhaust. These valves are 5 grams heavier than titanium valves of identical size without the drawbacks of titanium.
And now someone will PM me "Stop dissing titanium, Bitch!" (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

So, even I have sodium filled valves that I fully intend to use...

He was RIGHT!

There is NOTHING wrong with sodium filled valves.
They might be more critical regarding machine work.

Now, if you are having the valves refaced by a machine shop, I would MAKE SURE they were aware of the fact they are sodium filled.
It wouldn't surprise me if most machine shops refused to machine them now-a-days.

And, thinking about this has created a new "thing" for me somewhere down the road.

I WANT to see the sodium, I want to see how far out the valve face the sodium actually goes. I'd bet the sodium recess is more like a bulb than a full faced valve and this would mean there is NO WAY you could actually hit the pocket without cutting 1/3rd the diameter (or more) out of the valve.
I want to drop a chunk of it into water and then ATF.
Why ATF?
Because that is what every valve grinding machine I've ever operated used as a "cutting" fluid.
If it won't ignite in ATF all of the "oh shit be careful" was for naught.

And I LOVE to blow shit up!
Just OUTSIDE the shop...

Now I want to cut up a valve! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/devil.gif)

I have plenty of trashed 2.0L T4 exhaust valves anyway.
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/ninja.gif)

A final thought regarding valve material.
I VASTLY prefer Inconel over everything else at this time.
That material appears to be nearly indestructible.
Inconel is very expensive.
I have no idea if Inconel valves are available for T4s...

using 50 yr old sodium filled exhaust valves is VERY RISKY.
When rebuilding my 2L heads preparing to remove valves, i gently raped the valve heads just to see if any were frozen in the guides. One head popped right off (IMG:style_emoticons/default/WTF.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/WTF.gif)

[technicalninja]

Barefoot, I'm in agreement! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif)

Thanks for posting that picture. I've NOW seen a broken one.

Personally, I'd not use anything 50 years old in any build if I could avoid doing so.

This includes the head casting as well!
I really worry about seat tightness on anything old. Dropping a seat will ruin your day...

My reason for the last post was in response to a PM regarding overall use of SF valves.

I'd go brand name stainless or (if available) Inconel.

But I was shortsighted saying SF are inherently bad...

[VaccaRabite]

I was not aware you could even GET sodium filled valves anymore for a TIV.

Pillar of the community or not, I'd use solid steel.

Zach

[flipb]

Inconel was created for spaceflight. I've got a souvenir space-flown Inconel frangible nut that helped attach the External Tank to the Space Shuttle.

Had no idea anyone was using it in automotive applications, but stands to reason that it'd be extremely durable.

[ctc911ctc]

3) I physically verified #1 TDC and the distributor is 180 off. Is it that easy to install the distributor drive shaft backwards??

Please excuse me if I'm reading this wrong.....
But the piston is at TDC twice per power cycle, once on exhaust stroke and once on compression.
If the piston is on TDC exhaust stroke the rotor button will be 180* out.

If you put it in 180 out (this is 360 degrees crankshaft movement) and merely swap the wires two positions it will run just fine.

WHOOOOSH!
Right over his head

Nope. Spencer is right on. My old engine ran like that for years. The person that built it before me timed it 180 off. THAT took a moment to figure out. But I just rearraigned the plug wires and was good to go.

Zach

Wow - good ole American Ingenuity,

[technicalninja]

Inconel was created for spaceflight. I've got a souvenir space-flown Inconel frangible nut that helped attach the External Tank to the Space Shuttle.

Had no idea anyone was using it in automotive applications, but stands to reason that it'd be extremely durable.

I've got an interesting story about Inconel...

I'm friends with a master fabricator who ran a Track Car preparation and maintenance shop.
He had a tube frame GTU Mazda RX7 (Ex "factory" race car) and this critter would FRY exhaust systems which actually traveled through the interior of the car (in heat boxes).

As you might imagine 1800 degrees into the interior IS not a good thing.

This was 20 years back and Inconel was rare.
At that point in time, its "normal" place was rocket/missile nozzles.

Marty ordered a bunch of 3-4" stuff and 5 minutes AFTER it arrived, he was "visited" by the "Men in Black"...

The FREAKING FBI wanted to know just what he was using it for!

He said, "As soon as they understood that it REALLY was for a race car exhaust system, they "deflated" and turned out to be WAY COOL!"

So, at one time just having Inconel put you on a list...

[worn]

"Will it start", "Does it turn over"

I never understood that logic.


Take an engine that has sat for 5/10/15/20/25/+ years and the first thing people do is try to "turn it over".

If there was even a hint of moisture or corrosion in that engine (likely) you just ruined all the bearings and possibly scratched the rings, pistons and cylinders.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif)

That sounds good to me. But. What do you do given the situation? I feel like a hand on a wrench turning the crank might point out problems. Porsche never seems all that enthusiastic about getting a wrench on the crank though, so it isn’t easy.

[Spoke]

About starting an engine after a long sleep, I bought a 1.8L T4 mainly for the dual carbs and SSHE. The engine was frozen and wouldn't turn at all.

Drained the oil and out came about a gallon of water then the oil. Removed the plugs and sprayed WD40, penetrating oil, and regular motor oil into each cylinder. Using the alternator bolt and wrench, I was able to get the crank to turn just a tiny bit. Sprayed more oil in each cylinder and kept turning the crank. Little by little the crank turned until fully turning.

Changed the filter, new oil, put ignition and fuel to the engine and got it running. Ran that engine for about 5 years before pulling it for a 2056.

It wasn't ideal to wake up an engine but I was not going to put any money into the 1.8L.

[technicalninja]

"Will it start", "Does it turn over"

I never understood that logic.


Take an engine that has sat for 5/10/15/20/25/+ years and the first thing people do is try to "turn it over".

If there was even a hint of moisture or corrosion in that engine (likely) you just ruined all the bearings and possibly scratched the rings, pistons and cylinders.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif)

That sounds good to me. But. What do you do given the situation? I feel like a hand on a wrench turning the crank might point out problems. Porsche never seems all that enthusiastic about getting a wrench on the crank though, so it isn’t easy.

This is what I'd do on an engine that I knew nothing about. If I found trouble it would get addressed before the next step.

Borescope FIRST!
Add 30ccs Marvel Mystery oil to each cylinder.
Remove valve covers.
Remove rocker arms.
Verify no broken springs/valves stuck open.

Rotate engine by hand. You CAN rotate the engine by placing in gear and rolling car OR locking one rear wheel and rotating the other.
The only problem with this is you lose the "feel" of minor trouble that you can detest via a breaker bar.
I have modified an old cheap torque wrench (beam style) that I use the crap out of for just this purpose.
During rotation of a 4 cylinder, you should be able to "feel" two spots that require reduced torque. These are when the pistons reach both TDC and BDC.
So, some minor drag with two soft spots is what I'd be hunting.

And, if you have no compression (plugs out) and no valvetrain loading (rocker arms off) the amount of torque required to spin the engine over should be very small.

Really, you should be able to easily do this using the fan alone. Lots of folks use the alternator pully nut.

Rotate engine by hand through at least 720 degrees of rotation and check for roughness/binding.

Do leak down tests. LD testing is a BUNCH easier without the valves involved.
"Bonk" each valve lightly (under LD pressure) with a brass hammer to verify movement and not sticking open. You should notice your LD numbers improving with number of bonks; this is blowing debris from the valve seating interface.

If I made it to this point, I'd start prepping for an actual restart.

Change oil/filter. Clean strainer.
Disable fuel system and ignition system.
Install mechanical oil pressure gauge (shop tool).

Put shop towels over spark plug holes. Might get messy.

Spin engine with starter.
Spin engine until NO MORE marvel mystery oil is ejected from cylinders.

Reinstall/adjust rocker arms, valve covers. Change tube O-rings is not a bad thing to add

Run compression tests

Add ignition

Start on B12.

Add fuel.

You WILL have poor leak down numbers and compression readings before you run the engine both up to temperature and under load. Just revving the engine up is NOT enough. Up hills at 75% throttle or better is "load" in my book.

30-50% leak downs wouldn't bother me pre-run. 60psi comp test wouldn't either.

Red flags are numbers vastly different from each other.

Go drive "sportingly" and retest comp/LD hot.


Anyone think of something I missed?