Fred's 2375 Rebuild Thread Options

[friethmiller]

[A softball question for the Ninja and/or others]

This is the cam card that came with my 2357 engine, which was originally built by Rimco/Fat (long block) a few years ago. Can someone explain why with an intake/exhaust of 448, the lift was only set to 327 degrees? I'm about to rebuild my motor and a lot of focus will be directed at piston "deck clearance" and the valve train geometry that wasn't set correctly. Thanks.

[friethmiller]

Ok (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ninja.gif) , I used the two shims under the #1 jug and traversed a total of 84.52mm down from the top with a measured deck height of 2.5mm. That gives me 82.02mm of stroke. So, 82mm confirmed!

[friethmiller]

Ok, my 1.7L rocker arms do NOT have elephant feet. I saw that Ian Karr had his converted that way, so that might be the way to go.

[technicalninja]

https://aapistons.com/collections/porsche-p...ston-with-biral

There's one.

Almost looks like that doesn't intersect the pin bore.

Might not work with your crank/rods.

Have to do some math...



The elephant feet help the rocker with angularity. Allows more usable range.

Baby cams don't really need them.

You will NOT have a baby cam in that engine.

[friethmiller]

https://aapistons.com/collections/porsche-p...ston-with-biral

There's one.

Almost looks like that doesn't intersect the pin bore.

Might not work with your crank/rods.

Have to do some math...

The compression height on those is listed at 30.08mm. That's a little more than the KBs. I couldn't find the "official number" but I'm getting right around 28mm (assuming I'm measuring things correctly).

[cgnj]

@friethmiller At this point I wouldn't trust anything that you didn't personally measure. You appear to have VW journals, so you will be able to get.030 oversize rod bearings. The problem is going to be main bearings. Silverline is out of business. I think you will need both the crank and cam bores checked in addition to the case deck. with a .040 deck you would be at 9.8:1 Static 8.8 dynamic with 163/86b, 8.4:1 with 86b/86c. I would send it.

Clearly a stoker piston. Here is a link https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2pEPTIX8qPE

You are in the window of your tools.

[friethmiller]

@friethmiller At this point I wouldn't trust anything that you didn't personally measure. You appear to have VW journals, so you will be able to get.030 oversize rod bearings. The problem is going to be main bearings. Silverline is out of business. I think you will need both the crank and cam bores checked in addition to the case deck. with a .040 deck you would be at 9.8:1 Static 8.8 dynamic with 163/86b, 8.4:1 with 86b/86c. I would send it.

Thanks Carlos!

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/w00t.gif) Yes! That 86b/86c cam might be the best solution. Agree on the case and crank. Based on my previous -20 align bore, I already have a new set of 20/10s and 20/20s main bearing in hand if needed. Again, dependent on the machine shops diagnosis. Good to know on the rod bearings. Got a lot of moving parts here but (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ninja.gif) is right on figuring things out before pulling out the wallet.

Anyone have a good machine shop that can be trusted? I left a message at Red E Motorsport (based on Ian Karr's video ref). Waiting for a response back on that one.

[densible1]

I had EMS http://www.europeanmotorworks.com do the -20 align bore on my 2270 case. Jorge had the new main bearings in stock so work was done quick. Almost 4000 miles on engine build runs strong no issues. This work was done after Karrs video.
mark

[technicalninja]

Check with Eric @ Automotive Machine.

https://www.automotivemachine.com/

These guys have been my go-to machine shop for import stuff since the beginning.

I met Eric when he was 6 years old, running around his dad's machine shop.

Tom (Eric's dad) is one of the reasons I got "good" quickly.

They started with VWs...

[technicalninja]

And, if I could, I'd pattern the cam I chose on the KBs to see if it was even possible to run without eyebrows.

I'd rather run flat (lighter/flame travel/hotspots), I just want 0.080"+ valve to piston clearance over being flat...

I will machine a forged piston a small amount.
No machining of hyper for me, some say it works fine, too much downside.

Whatever piston you chose; DO NOT trust pictures on the web.
Verify it has the features you want!

[friethmiller]

Thanks Rick,

I'll take my case and crank (+ other moving parts) up there based on your recommendation alone. Shipping stuff like this is getting stupid-expensive, as you know. If I do, you want me to stop by the shop or meet you somewhere? I certainly appreciate all your assistance up to this point. No obligation.

Fred

[burton73]

@ friethmiller

I just spent a bit of time with Mark Sonners going over the build that we did on his 2270 built by Jake Raby, over 20 years ago. We have a lot of pictures that I took during the disassembly and the reassembly and the parts. Mark is going to put them up online here in a way that people would be able to easily get to them. There's a lot of pictures.

This Eng has RAT case, RAT HAM heads and I think you are overthinking it. If you do what we did on Marks Eng. And put in the oil cooling up front I think you will end up with a very nice build and no overheating.

Best Bob B

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/driving-girl.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/driving-girl.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/driving-girl.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/driving-girl.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/driving-girl.gif)

Also, note the windage tray that Jake did. It has been modified
The folder will have 83 Pictures and the start up Vid.

Marks Server https://artbox.industryartworks.com/s/of8CKoNyptHf6X7?

[densible1]

@burton73

here's link to those 2270 build snaps. https://artbox.industryartworks.com/s/of8CKoNyptHf6X7
mark

[Montreal914]

I am very far from being an expert but I did a lot of reading. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)

Mentioned before: rod length seems short
Why use 1.7 (or 1.8?) head combustion chamber foundation?
Cam: I would at least have a chat with Laurie at WebCam
Is the case relieved or full 30mm thickness under the cylinders?
Fundamentally, why not go with a known good 78x96 configuration?
What's the oil setup (pump, cooling,...)

Sound like a fun project! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smash.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/driving.gif)

[technicalninja]

That RAT engine used those same KBs and a big cam.

There might be room!

I would call Automotive Machine next week and find out what their "lead" time is.

Clay Perrine said they have lost some of their fixtures and couldn't do some of the machine work. (like line boring!).

I'd ask if they still did what you need.

Sometimes they are backlogged for months...

I've caught mistakes SOME OF THE TIME as well.

Another member said he was going to send his work directly to LN. This sounds like the "preferrable" route IMO. I'd check with them regarding lead time as well.

I never spoke with Eric about the T4 stuff.
Deciding to go SWAPO reduced my dependance on machine shops...

AM is not cheap either!

If I had to choose AM or LN I'd go LN most likely.

Eric, he has the 82 crank and all the stuff to make it work now.
His case is the weak version, and the case may be warped.

Fred, I DO have a stupid nice 73 2.0l case.
I WAS planning on keeping it "just in case" a stroker landed in my lap. I believe my case is straight now.
It has the thick registers (which I also believe are straight) and the updated oil stuff.

I could probably be talked out of it if your case proves bad...

Coming up might be a good idea. I can show you how to do valves and hand lapping.
If you had the new springs I could finish heads.

If you got real lucky "minimum" might be this.

Bearings
Rings
Gaskets
Roll pins
Cam
Lifters
Push rods
EF adjusters
Springs/retainers/locks

Those linked pics are good to look through. AT one point you can see the RMS drain mod. It's a FREAKING trench in that engine. On that one they went BIG!

[cgnj]

@Montreal914 @friethmiller This was a low mileage motor that broke the tip off of a pushrod. He paid for a long block from FAT (don't know if he cored his motor). He took it apart and these are the parts that were in it. It explains the short rods, the huge deck and the problem with the oil control ring. So, trying to make lemonade from lemons.

Rods are short. I'm sure a 5.4 rod will fit. 5.5 will be a question mark. I don't think he will be able to get an off the shelf shim. Engine width will become a problem. May have problems with the tin. Could have big end cam lobe interference issues.

I think he has 44x38 valves. He has dual springs. They are probably ported. It's what he has. I used 1.8 heads. I did have the plugs relocated and tapped for 10mm plugs.

It's a late case. It would be interesting to find out if it does need to be decked. If you listen carefully to the 3 cases video, early cases for big bore motors. I have 3 cases that I'm going to drop off soon. I'll let everyone know what happens.

[technicalninja]

It would be useful to have the shim measurements.
You should have two sets of four. A set should have same thickness in all.

Please check.

Might be possible to deck registers and achieve proper quench with a single shim.

Be handy to verify deck height of all 4.
If things are good, you'll be +/- .001

@cgnj I asked for skirt pics because of "short rod". I didn't see any evidence of bad thrust in the skirts he showed.
I didn't see them all, but it looks like the rod length works OK.

[friethmiller]

It would be useful to have the shim measurements.
You should have two sets of four. A set should have same thickness in all.

Please check.

Might be possible to deck registers and achieve proper quench with a single shim.

Be handy to verify deck height of all 4.
If things are good, you'll be +/- .001

@cgnj I asked for skirt pics because of "short rod". I didn't see any evidence of bad thrust in the skirts he showed.
I didn't see them all, but it looks like the rod length works OK.

Sure! Each cylinder had two shims: one measuring .088 inches and another at .090 inches. I did do a rough deck height of .022 with just the .090 shim. I think that would mean, as it stands now, I would need a single shim of .108 to hit a .040 deck. I’ll double check everything in the morning for all 4 cylinders. Based on the fact that my pistons are already proud of the cylinders (w/o shims). If material is removed from the case registers, wouldn’t that increase the size of the shim needed? Wouldn’t reducing the crank size by 2-4mm makes more sense?

I mentioned earlier that I have a W block that I can use - assuming it checks out.

No skirt damage on any of these pistons.

Morning Update: With a 0.090 shim installed under each cylinder and using pvc pipes +washer/nuts holding everything down I get the following piston-deck clearances:

#1 = 0.023, #2 = 0.023, #3 = 0.024, #4 = 0.024

[friethmiller]

I am very far from being an expert but I did a lot of reading. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)

Mentioned before: rod length seems short
Why use 1.7 (or 1.8?) head combustion chamber foundation?
Cam: I would at least have a chat with Laurie at WebCam
Is the case relieved or full 30mm thickness under the cylinders?
Fundamentally, why not go with a known good 78x96 configuration?
What's the oil setup (pump, cooling,...)

Sound like a fun project! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smash.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/driving.gif)

Yeah, I could go with a 78mm crank and save the 82mm for another engine build. This is my option #3 listed earlier.

Oil setup is just a 30mm high flow pump + oil galley ported in the case. Will be going to a remote cooler depending on the final setup.

[friethmiller]

I have 3 cases that I'm going to drop off soon. I'll let everyone know what happens.

Can I inquire as to which shop you are getting this work done?

[friethmiller]

@burton73

here's link to those 2270 build snaps. https://artbox.industryartworks.com/s/of8CKoNyptHf6X7
mark

Thanks to @densible1 and @burton73 for the photos. Very interesting to see one of these old RAT engines. I'm still studying all these photos. BTW, I modified my windage tray but with four 1/2" drain holes but Jake's mod is a lot larger. I also plan to do the RMS mod this time around, too (IMG:style_emoticons/default/idea.gif)

@burton73 - you said it was a 2270. Pistons look larger than 96mm and the CB rods are 5.4". Do you recall the crank size?