Ball Seat Lug Bolt questions Options

[Literati914]

I've looked at PET and it's very vague on lug bolt specs. I recall that the 2L Fuchs used a bolt that has a 40mm threaded shank with 19mm Hex - and I think R14 radius(??). But what about the VW produced Steelies (Sport steelies in my case)? I can not find length requirements - though I have some rusty lug bolts that look the part and the threaded area is only 20mm which seems kind of short. Do these wheels also require R14 radiused bolts like the Fuchs? R14 seem to be a little hard to come by- I keep seeing aftermarket sellers referencing VW as R12 instead.
I could maybe have the one I got cleaned up and chromed but that a huge hassle of course.

[Montreal914]

Steelies would use Beetle bolts.

[914Sixer]

914 Lug bolts for steel wheels are M14x1.5 25mm. VW are shorter than 914's. Both are ball seat
Quick pull from Ebay, these will work fine 28mm.

[Literati914]

Steelies would use Beetle bolts.

Thanks, but what ball seat radius? I've read that using R12 in place of R14 is dangerous. BTW, didn't some early VW use a 12mm lug bolt? The R12/R14 radius issue may be nothing to worry about.. but since I'll be buying anyway - might as well try and tick the right boxes.

[Superhawk996]

Imma’ gonna’ be a jackass for a second then I’ll try to answer your question.

Buy a radius gauge and don’t rely on the internet rumors for something your life may depend upon. This includes my advice to follow.



For a conventional ball lug, the radius of the ball corresponds to the the shank diameter of the lug. Example: M14x1.5 lug will have a ball radius of R14. Same for the early M12 VW bolts; they are R12. There are hybrids and exceptions to this general rule due to all the custom wheels out there.

It is my personal belief that all 914’s were M14 regardless of whether they were alloy or steel. I have been wrong before and still have things to learn about 914s.

But given its 50 years later and the 914 crowd being legendary for their cheapness, who’s to say someone hasn’t swapped something. I think (but am not sure) that the early VW M12 lugs were associated with the early stamped wheels with the much larger bolt circle

Someone here deep into early bugs will know.

[bdstone914]

Same radius. Steel lug bolts are 25mm, alloy 38mm.

[Literati914]

This forum represents a great wealth of knowledge and usually has a few people who've been down a given road before me, encountered the same issues years before, etc. I appreciate the suggestion of buying another tool, I had no idea one of those even existed, never thought about it tbh.. but then again I'd rather not buy it if I could help it - would probably never get used again.

Also.. I certainly assumed that an M14 lug bolt naturally corresponded to an R14 radius and M12 bolt to the R12 radius, I thought that was a given. At least that would be the norm, right? - wrong! There are plenty of M14x1.5 lug bolts at Amazon that are R12, if not most.

I'll keep looking, thanks.. I have the length now at least.

[Superhawk996]

I’m still going to give you (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smilie_pokal.gif) for asking the question.

When I put my car back together for transport cross country I discovered that prior owner had been running conical lugs in wheels with the ball sockets. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/headbang.gif) Very dangerous!! People do (IMG:style_emoticons/default/screwy.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/stromberg.gif)

[technicalninja]

Thanks @Superhawk996

You weren't being an asshole at all!

Good info. I was un-aware of the radius gauges either. I should have known.

And having the wrong lug nut style installed is rampant!

I let an acquaintance borrow a set of "shanked washer" style wheels and they installed them with cone lug nuts.

Screwed up the top of the bores to the point the shanked fasteners wouldn't fit anymore...

I wanted to KILL...
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/chair.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/chair.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/chair.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/chair.gif)

[Superhawk996]

You weren't being an asshole at all!

I‘ll try harder (IMG:style_emoticons/default/happy11.gif)

There are a ton of really nice radius gauges out there. Very common fab tool. This set has a limited range covering the plausible range that would be needed up R14.5 for a whopping cost of about $7. My life is worth $7 to me but others may disagree. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

The other option is to buy a known M14x1.5 R14 lug and use that as the gauge to verify fit before ordering a whole vehicle set.

[Literati914]

.. for a whopping cost of about $7. My life is worth $7 to me but others may disagree. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

The other option is to buy a known M14x1.5 R14 lug and use that as the gauge to verify fit before ordering a whole vehicle set.

Maybe don't imply that not wanting to buy the gauge is a money thing, or fool hardy .. again, someone's probably come across this in the past .. if nothing else the VW forums have probably covered it at some point too (they've been known to switch from steelies to stock 2L Fuchs). I just thought someone here might know off the top of their head, no big deal - I'll figure it out. Thanks again.

[Superhawk996]

Maybe don't imply that not wanting to buy the gauge is a money thing, or fool hardy .. again, someone's probably come across this in the past .. if nothing else the VW forums have probably covered it at some point too (they've been known to switch from steelies to stock 2L Fuchs). I just thought someone here might know off the top of their head, no big deal - I'll figure it out. Thanks again.

Come on @Literati914 . . . Ninja was saying I wasn’t trying . . .

But dude - you have your answer. Bdstone also chimed in with M14 = R14 ball for 914. I’m not sure exactly what you’re seeking for validation but I wish you well in your quest.

[Literati914]

..
But dude - you have your answer. Bdstone also chimed in with M14 = R14 ball for 914. I’m not sure exactly what you’re seeking for validation but I wish you well in your quest.

Not trying to argue or validate anything, I'm sure you mean well

[930cabman]

You weren't being an asshole at all!

I‘ll try harder (IMG:style_emoticons/default/happy11.gif)

There are a ton of really nice radius gauges out there. Very common fab tool. This set has a limited range covering the plausible range that would be needed up R14.5 for a whopping cost of about $7. My life is worth $7 to me but others may disagree. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

The other option is to buy a known M14x1.5 R14 lug and use that as the gauge to verify fit before ordering a whole vehicle set.

"I'll try harder" good one

also, from an earlier post "being legendary for cheapness"

thanks I needed a good laugh today, home nursing a bad back

[Literati914]

..
"I'll try harder" good one

also, from an earlier post "being legendary for cheapness"

thanks I needed a good laugh today, home nursing a bad back

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif) I'm lost (IMG:style_emoticons/default/idea.gif)

[Superhawk996]

thanks I needed a good laugh today, home nursing a bad back

@930cabman

Same here - tweaked it two days ago working on the shop. Basically did nothing other than working hunched over for too long.

Maybe that’s why I’m being salty?

[Superhawk996]

I'm sure you mean well

Indeed I do mean well and meant to be helpful. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

[Literati914]

From a post over on TheSamba:
"..mhoriuchi wrote:
R14 is correct Very Happy


Typically, the radius of a ball seat is in correlation to the stud size. So an M12 tends to be an R12 and an M14 is an R14. Oddball hybrid stuff like an R13 radius on an M14 bolts is mainly seen on newer custom wheels (usually so you have to buy their proprietary bolts).
VW had both M12 and M14 lug bolts and M14 lug nuts and the radius correlated to their size . Porsche only ever used M14 stuff on their air-cooled cars that I'm aware of and they were all R14. Porsche also shared parts with VW anywhere they could since it was cheaper (it's easy to forget how small of a company Porsche was at the time).
The lug bolts in the listing's VW part number is N0201121 (or N201121 way back when before they needed more digits). Porsche used the same part number - just for giggles I pulled 356, 911, and 914 parts books to verify. You can actually order these exact same lug nuts from both your local VW and Porsche dealerships under that part number still (but from VW they are $5.09 each while they are $11.10 each from Porsche). .."

Sorry if I got wires crossed here on this. I appreciate everyone's input and I intended my original question to be more regarding the length, thanks for the info @bdstone914 . The above quote sorts out what I'd/we'd suspected regarding radius', and confirms Bruce's post too. What was throwing me (I think) is all the options at Amazon that are M14 bolts with an R12 radius ...yeah (IMG:style_emoticons/default/screwy.gif) . Here are some examples:
https://www.amazon.com/Wheel-Accessories-Pa...C149&sr=8-3
https://www.amazon.com/Wheel-Accessories-Pa...C149&sr=8-4
https://www.amazon.com/Wheel-Accessories-Pa...C149&sr=8-5
There are many more, but you get the idea. I'm thinking that the M14 lug bolts (@ amazon) just don't state a radius unless it's something out of the norm.. so, plenty of those there too. Thanks again.

[930cabman]

thanks I needed a good laugh today, home nursing a bad back

@930cabman

Same here - tweaked it two days ago working on the shop. Basically did nothing other than working hunched over for too long.

Maybe that’s why I’m being salty?

we will forgive it this time

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/aktion035.gif)


rest and heating pad for me usually helps

[technicalninja]

My Chiropractor is magical with that type of problem.

I've got an "old school" one.

Since the move to Granbury, he's 60 miles away.

Still worth the drive!

20 years back he snapped a bone spur off of my wife's heel with a couple of wooden rulers!

We were set up for $3500 worth of "elective" surgery with an orthopedic surgeon.

She'd gone in for back problems and he saw her limping.

Didn't charge us anything over the normal visit fee!

Worked like a champ! Zero "recovery" time too.