123 Ignition Distributor Timing Curve, Curve for carbureted 2056 Options

[SteveNMaine]

I am looking for the basic timing curve settings for a 123 TUNE+ 4-R-V-P distributor for a dual 40 IDF carbureted 2056.

I have been all over the different forums and really looking for more specific information for my build.

Thanks.

[flipb]

Here are some of the standard Bosch curves. I'm running 2056 with IDF 40s and I've programmed in the 050 curve; I find that it makes excellent power.

(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/uploads_offsite/rennlist.com-10752-1739984715.1.jpg)

[930cabman]

I am running an aftermarket 009, works great. I'm not sure if I want/need advance coming on before 1,000 rpms

[Jack Standz]

Here are some of the standard Bosch curves. I'm running 2056 with IDF 40s and I've programmed in the 050 curve; I find that it makes excellent power.

(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/uploads_offsite/rennlist.com-10752-1739984715.1.jpg)

To the OP, I'll add my current and total advance amounts we are running on our 2056, if you think it's relevant, because it's got a Mallory Unilite distributor and not a 123 distributor.

@flipb

Very interesting on the 050 advance curve (which is a distributor I ran on a VW years ago). IIRC it worked and ran well.

Questions:

1. If you've programmed in 30 degrees of total advance, where is your initial advance set at? What's your CR?

2. Are you getting any pre-ignition (pinging) with all this advance on your 2056?

[JamesM]

Assuming you have the fully programable model, it would benefit you to hold 8-10 degrees advance from just above your intended idle speed all the way down to zero rather than dropping your timing completely to zero. This will give a better, more consistant idle with less tendency to stall. another trick you could use is to have a plateau on your idle range and then slightly advance the timing ~100 RPM below that, so say 8 degrees advance from 800-1100 rpm but set a point at 700 rpm to 10-12 degrees. This will serve to automatically kit up the engine torque/speed if it starts heading for a stall.

As for the curve beyond that, the 009 curve looks like it would be an absolute dog below 3200. The curves I usually setup look more like the 022 and 031 curves you have. Most engines I aim for 28 degrees full advance, hitting it before 3000 rpm with the shape of the curve below that somewhat specific to the engine and if I am using vacuum advance/retard

[Jack Standz]

So why I was asking is this. If the initial advance is say "8 to 14 degrees" and you add 30 degrees to it, you end up with 38 to 44 degrees all-in.

Is that too much? (For a 2056 with something around an 8.6 to 9.0 CR) You say 28 degrees is your target. Don't see how you can keep to that kind of a target with 30 degrees advance?

[brant]

38-44 is too much

Shot for 30 depending on your altitude total

Cam selection matters also

And the 009 curve is notorious for flat spots on a type 4 motor

[flipb]

Here are some of the standard Bosch curves. I'm running 2056 with IDF 40s and I've programmed in the 050 curve; I find that it makes excellent power.

To the OP, I'll add my current and total advance amounts we are running on our 2056, if you think it's relevant, because it's got a Mallory Unilite distributor and not a 123 distributor.

@flipb

Very interesting on the 050 advance curve (which is a distributor I ran on a VW years ago). IIRC it worked and ran well.

Questions:

1. If you've programmed in 30 degrees of total advance, where is your initial advance set at? What's your CR?

2. Are you getting any pre-ignition (pinging) with all this advance on your 2056?

Here's the curve as I programmed it into the 1-2-3 Distributor. I don't remember my CR, would need to look at the engine build notes. It's not super high. Have not noticed any pinging but I am running premium fuel.

[flipb]

Adding to the above -- for what it's worth, I'm running the European Motorworks "G" cam.

[Jack Standz]

@flipb

OK, thanks for the response.

Just to clarify, you're saying that you're firing the sparks in your 2056 at TDC (top dead center) from 0 to 1,000 RPMs?

That seems way too late. How is low RPM performance?

[JamesM]

So why I was asking is this. If the initial advance is say "8 to 14 degrees" and you add 30 degrees to it, you end up with 38 to 44 degrees all-in.

If the 123 has been installed correctly what you see in their tuning software is the timing you get. There should be no "initial advance" or anything occurring outside what the software is showing you.

[VaccaRabite]

I am running an aftermarket 009, works great. I'm not sure if I want/need advance coming on before 1,000 rpms

The 009 was made for running generators, not sports cars. Look at the chart and you can see why its so reviled. Your car may run, but I can promise you it will run better with an 050 it will run better.

Zach

[flipb]

@flipb

OK, thanks for the response.

Just to clarify, you're saying that you're firing the sparks in your 2056 at TDC (top dead center) from 0 to 1,000 RPMs?

That seems way too late. How is low RPM performance?

As I understand it, the 1-2-3 software draws in the section of the advance curve between the points that I programmed in. So linearly, since I have zero advance at 500rpm and 5 degrees at 1000rpm, it should look like:

500rpm - 0 degrees
600rpm - 1 degree
700rpm - 2 degrees
800rpm - 3 degrees
900rpm - 4 degrees
1000rpm - 5 degrees

Since it idles around 900rpm, it's never really running with spark at TDC except perhaps during cranking. Idles fine.

[SteveNMaine]

@flipb

OK, thanks for the response.

Just to clarify, you're saying that you're firing the sparks in your 2056 at TDC (top dead center) from 0 to 1,000 RPMs?

That seems way too late. How is low RPM performance?

As I understand it, the 1-2-3 software draws in the section of the advance curve between the points that I programmed in. So linearly, since I have zero advance at 500rpm and 5 degrees at 1000rpm, it should look like:

500rpm - 0 degrees
600rpm - 1 degree
700rpm - 2 degrees
800rpm - 3 degrees
900rpm - 4 degrees
1000rpm - 5 degrees

Since it idles around 900rpm, it's never really running with spark at TDC except perhaps during cranking. Idles fine.

So, if I set the 123 timing from 10 @ 950 to 28 @ 3500 it will fill in equal increments of advance across the RPM range?

[flipb]

@flipb

OK, thanks for the response.

Just to clarify, you're saying that you're firing the sparks in your 2056 at TDC (top dead center) from 0 to 1,000 RPMs?

That seems way too late. How is low RPM performance?

As I understand it, the 1-2-3 software draws in the section of the advance curve between the points that I programmed in. So linearly, since I have zero advance at 500rpm and 5 degrees at 1000rpm, it should look like:

500rpm - 0 degrees
600rpm - 1 degree
700rpm - 2 degrees
800rpm - 3 degrees
900rpm - 4 degrees
1000rpm - 5 degrees

Since it idles around 900rpm, it's never really running with spark at TDC except perhaps during cranking. Idles fine.

So, if I set the 123 timing from 10 @ 950 to 28 @ 3500 it will fill in equal increments of advance across the RPM range?

Yes, I believe it would draw a linear slope between any two points. See the chart in my post above -- that is right out of the 1-2-3 app.

(I realize that the Bosch 050 Advance Curve is pretty much linear so I could've saved myself some time by just programming in 1000RPM and 3000RPM but I guess I was still learning at that point.)

[iankarr]

Since every engine is different, and the benefit of the 123 is the ability to customize the curve, there’s isn’t an “official” setting. Start by clearing all points, then add one for 8 degrees at 950rpm, and another one for 30 degrees at 3000 rpm. This should get you very drivable. As you drive, take note of where the flat spots and stumbles are and add points at those rpms. Experiment increasing the timing at those points until the power band smooths out and extends as far as possible.

Before you do anything, though, verify that the 123 is synched with a timing light. Rev the engine to 3000rpm and turn the dizzy until the timing light agrees with the 30 degree point you set. Then lock it down.

[SteveNMaine]

Since every engine is different, and the benefit of the 123 is the ability to customize the curve, there’s isn’t an “official” setting. Start by clearing all points, then add one for 8 degrees at 950rpm, and another one for 30 degrees at 3000 rpm. This should get you very drivable. As you drive, take note of where the flat spots and stumbles are and add points at those rpms. Experiment increasing the timing at those points until the power band smooths out and extends as far as possible.

Before you do anything, though, verify that the 123 is synched with a timing light. Rev the engine to 3000rpm and turn the dizzy until the timing light agrees with the 30 degree point you set. Then lock it down.

Thank you Ian. I used your videos to build my 2056.

[IronHillRestorations]

If you have the Bluetooth version, I can email or text this curve to you

[914_teener]

So why I was asking is this. If the initial advance is say "8 to 14 degrees" and you add 30 degrees to it, you end up with 38 to 44 degrees all-in.

Is that too much? (For a 2056 with something around an 8.6 to 9.0 CR) You say 28 degrees is your target. Don't see how you can keep to that kind of a target with 30 degrees advance?

Jeez....I must be getting old or there are not enough of us old guys that understand the difference between static timing and dynamic advance timing.

When you set your idle timing, that is set first...so static timing. The rest is handled by the distributor wether it's a 123 or a set of weights and or vacuum signals from the engine.

The "curve" which is really a set of points "linear interpolation" is based on the engines VE or volumetric efficiency.


edit: Dwell ( when you have a set up points) is voodo as it sets the degrees of the cam angle(s) to fire the spark. Since it's voodo....the electronic dizzy's don't have em.

There; My Krusty comments.


Simple as that...no voodo math or mystery's about it.

[SteveNMaine]

I still have not been able to get my 2056 to start with the 123Ignition. It sounds like it wants to start but no joy.

I followed the installation instructions and even talked to the factory, no joy.

I have tried almost every curve I can find on the forums, no joy.

I am sure it is a timing thing but just cannot figure it out.

I am just about ready to give up and sell off the project, two 1974 1.8 bodies, three engines (1.7, 1.8 and the 2056), two side shifter transaxles, etc.

I see no path forward; it has just become too frustrating. This will be the first project I ever walked away from.