tuna can vs. deep sump vs. Accu sump Options

[jmargush]

Now that I have an oil pressure gauge in car I can see drastic swings in oil pressure while on the autox course.

So this prompts a few questions.

Does the Type IV have an oil system that really isn't adequate for higher G loads and quick direction changes?


Will I see an noticeable difference if i go tuna can sump vs. Deep sump vs. Accu sump?

I understand the Accu sump is likely the way to go but there is also a significant entry cost difference and more involvement on the install.

I hate to spend the money on the easy install of a tuna can if it isn't going to make a noticeable difference and I should have just put the money toward the Accu sump.

[Geezer914]

I had a deep sump installed and it took forever for the oil to get to operating temperature and it hung about 1 1/2" below the engine bar, ground clearance??. I installed a tuna can and have not seen any loss in oil pressure when hard corning. No experience with accusump.

[jmargush]

I had a deep sump installed and it took forever for the oil to get to operating temperature and it hung about 1 1/2" below the engine bar, ground clearance??. I installed a tuna can and have not seen any loss in oil pressure when hard corning. No experience with accusump.

Do you do any autoxing?

[914werke]

Im a bit biased here, And dont do any autoxing (prefer road course) but what I can add is that the Tuna can concept is pretty simple.
Instead of a wide flat pan for oil that is susceptible to G loaded slosh to the walls of that pan (away from the sump PU) by lowering the oil PU point to a constrained pool at the lowest point in that pan, as long as your engine has (sufficient) oil you should always have pressure.

[emerygt350]

I am too busy to look down so my oil pressure is always great on the autocross course. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

I keep meaning to add the tuna can but I just keep finding other stuff to do...

[Geezer914]

I had a deep sump installed and it took forever for the oil to get to operating temperature and it hung about 1 1/2" below the engine bar, ground clearance??. I installed a tuna can and have not seen any loss in oil pressure when hard corning. No experience with accusump.

Do you do any autoxing?

I have done autocross with the tuna can, no loss in pressure.

[GregAmy]

Does the Type IV have an oil system that really isn't adequate for higher G loads and quick direction changes?

Yes. My 914 road racer was built around 1999, right about when Hoosier started getting sticky tires, and the previous owner kept popping engines due to low oil pressure. He tried tuna cans, bigger sumps and still had failures so he finally gave up because the regs did not allow him a proper fix...which was a dry sump system.

When I got the car it was the first thing I did (while rebuilding the engine). I use this pump:

https://www.cbperformance.com/product-p/1745cl.htm

I use a Canton oil tank up front (it already had a front-mounted oil cooler). But for general autocross and street use I suggest you could use a 914/6 tank in the stock location.

As for Accusumps, here's my thoughts on them:

https://tgadrivel.blogspot.com/2024/05/on-accusumps.html

For any kind of competition on sticky tires, I strongly recommend going dry sump. - GA

[jmargush]

Does the Type IV have an oil system that really isn't adequate for higher G loads and quick direction changes?

Yes. My 914 road racer was built around 1999, right about when Hoosier started getting sticky tires, and the previous owner kept popping engines due to low oil pressure. He tried tuna cans, bigger sumps and still had failures so he finally gave up because the regs did not allow him a proper fix...which was a dry sump system.

When I got the car it was the first thing I did (while rebuilding the engine). I use this pump:

https://www.cbperformance.com/product-p/1745cl.htm

I use a Canton oil tank up front (it already had a front-mounted oil cooler). But for general autocross and street use I suggest you could use a 914/6 tank in the stock location.

As for Accusumps, here's my thoughts on them:

https://tgadrivel.blogspot.com/2024/05/on-accusumps.html

For any kind of competition on sticky tires, I strongly recommend going dry sump. - GA

Greg,

looks like some good reading I'll check it out.

Does the dry sump get plumbed in with a oil filter adapter block?

I assume guys like Chris Foley and Len Hoffman are running a dry sump?

[jd74914]

I assume guys like Chris Foley and Len Hoffman are running a dry sump?

Yes, they all run dry sumps.

[GregAmy]

Does the dry sump get plumbed in with a oil filter adapter block?

It's all installed so I can't take any photos, but the oil pump looks just like a standard oil pump except extended; making it a two-stage pump (two different sets of parallel gears).

It fits behind the stock fan shroud but you have to fab a front mount bracket.

It has two fittings on the extended part, pointing sideways. One is the "scavage" port/stage which extracts oil from the sump (using the same pickup tube) and sends the oil to a tank; the second port/stage is where the oil comes from the tank and is sent to the engine passages.

The design ensures that one stage's job (oil from the tank) is just to provide pressurized oil to the engine, and the other stage's only job is just to re-fill the tank. As long as you have oil in the tank (mine is 8-10 quarts) you'll get pressurized oil.

You don't have to change the existing oil filter system to do this, the stock filter cassette will work fine. All you're doing is plumbing the pump to the tank, and the tank back to the pump.

In my case, I already had a front-mounted oil cooler so I just leveraged that system by adding the tank up front.

It's a bit involved since you have to mod the CB pump to fit the Type 4 engine; Chris Foley did that for me and I seem to recall it was modifying the drive tang to fit the T4 camshaft. But he can probably help you with that. And, of course, you have to add a tank and external (AN) lines. But the concept is a lot more simple than you may initially think.

I'm not a fan of them (as you may have read) but an Accusump might work just fine for brief, unextended cornering and transitions, such as in autocross. For that environment you might consider trying one first. But if you start getting into track days and/or tie trials with sticky tires* then the dry sump system should be on your horizon.

GA

*I've done a Track Night in America with my street 914 on Firestone street rocks without noticeable issue. But I was very cautious on the longer corners as all I have in that car is the oil pressure idiot light.

[VaccaRabite]

IMO, every 914 that gets driven hard should have a Tuna Can at least. And a quality one at that. And, yes you do need to use CAUTION installing them as you can and will destroy the case if you over torque that retaining bolt.

I prefer a tuna can to a deep sump, as the deep sump can still have oil sloshing away from the pickup.

Dry sump is the best option, but overkill for my needs. I have not AXed in a while, but I never lost pressure on a course with a tuna can.

Zach

[bkrantz]

I had a tuna can on my race car back in the 90s, which did help on tracks. Not sure how effective it was during aggressive autocross.

[chmillman]

Also had a “tuna can” on my first 914 back in California in the late ‘70s. IIRC the “can” was a one-piece stamped steel thing back then. Thinking about adding one to my current (street) car with which I often drive pretty hard on curvy mountain roads. They seem to be a bit hard to find here, any recommendations as to a good quality one?

[FlacaProductions]

When Rich @914werke gets them back in stock, I'd happily recommend him and his products. https://914werke.com/shop/ols/products/mini-sump

@jonesy was/is based in the UK and used to offer these but he hasn't been logged on here in 5 years....

[chmillman]

Hmm, yeah, they seem to be unobtanium currently… (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif)

[914werke]

I have them. in stock

[GregAmy]

I snagged some (poor) photos of the pump with the car on the lift this morning. One is from the left side, with the (black) fan housing to the left; the crooked one is from the right side, with the fan housing to the right.

The left side hose is the scavenge stage, that takes oil from the engine and sends it to the tank; the right side hose is the return from the tank that supplies oil back to the engine.

In my installation, both lines run through the right heater duct into the cabin and then through the front firewall. The left one has a wider-radius u-turn to head back to the right side of the car.

If I were doing this on a street car that did not need a front cooler, I'd leverage a repro 914/6 oil tank and do everything on the left side, and keep it inside the engine compartment.

You can kinda see the front mount bracket that was fab'd by Chris for this installation. -GA

[FlacaProductions]

I have them. in stock

Hey Rich - sorry - site showed them out of stock.

[chmillman]

I have them. in stock

Hey Rich - sorry - site showed them out of stock.

Still does…

[914werke]

I have them. in stock

Hey Rich - sorry - site showed them out of stock.

Still does…

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