Type4 Newbie wants to build one..?..., Scary or dive in!? Options

[2mAn]

Hey Everyone,

Been considering buying a Type4 "kit" and building one up from scratch. I recall theres a book thats been suggested to use, and wanted to know what you guys think.

I have contemplating doing this for a while now and figured I would see what you guys think. This would be a side project with no definitely timeline as the engine currently has no home and would be a problem for future me.

So, what do you think? Any suggested books, tools, etc that are "must-haves" ?

Thanks!
-Simon

[mgphoto]

This is your starting point.



https://www.thriftbooks.com/w/how-to-rebuil...edition=3431770

[GregAmy]

Spend some time on youtube looking at Ian Karr's videos.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=edUCRiJhqCA...H04wtCxj2YjlNVx

Jake Raby also made a DVD on how to build one, I'd not be shocked to hear it's pirated somewhere for download:

https://vwparts.aircooled.net/Bug-Me-Video-...build-vol-8.htm

[SirAndy]

Scary or dive in!?

Yes ... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[2mAn]

This is your starting point.

Thanks, thats the one. Order placed!

Spend some time on youtube looking at Ian Karr's videos.

Jake Raby also made a DVD on how to build one, I'd not be shocked to hear it's pirated somewhere for download:

I will take a look at his videos, and when Im closer I'll buy the Raby DVD (once I have a setup working to watch DVDs haha)

[iankarr]

Go for it! You'll learn tons. Just set your expectations in-line.

[flipb]

Two unsolicited cents:

When you say "kit" -- there are a number of vendors who'll sell a complete kit and it can be a very good way to go.

However, I'd also say that being in SoCal, you could probably save a decent amount by sourcing your own parts. Short blocks aren't hard to find, and European Motorworks in Hawthorne is one option (of many) for piecing together your chosen combination of Ps&Cs, Induction, etc.

[mgphoto]

Additionally find a pdf version of the engine Factory Service Manual, specifically the engine volume, that has the specs you need and factory tools, which you can find alternate solutions.
Good luck, keep asking questions.

[2mAn]

Heres whats included for a little over $3k delivered.

Scat 88 stroke crank Chevy rod, dynamically balanced. Unused.
CB H beam rods. Chevy journal, 22mm wrist pin. Unused
JE 103mm forged pistons w/ rings and cylinders. Unused
914-2.0 heads machined for 103mm. Rebuilt with SS valves 42x36. Scat dual springs
and Scat chromo retainers.
Lightened stock flywheel. 11lb 6oz. For 215 clutch. Also balanced.
Used case bored for 103mm but not yet clearanced for the crank.
New parts are from the late 90's

Yay or Nay?

[mgphoto]

Heres whats included for a little over $3k delivered.

Scat 88 stroke crank Chevy rod, dynamically balanced. Unused.
CB H beam rods. Chevy journal, 22mm wrist pin. Unused
JE 103mm forged pistons w/ rings and cylinders. Unused
914-2.0 heads machined for 103mm. Rebuilt with SS valves 42x36. Scat dual springs
and Scat chromo retainers.
Lightened stock flywheel. 11lb 6oz. For 215 clutch. Also balanced.
Used case bored for 103mm but not yet clearanced for the crank.
New parts are from the late 90's

Yay or Nay?

I have 1 question, have you ever built an engine before, lawnmower, go kart, motorcycle, Detroit V8?

[Superhawk996]

Heres whats included for a little over $3k delivered.

Scat 88 stroke crank Chevy rod, dynamically balanced. Unused.
CB H beam rods. Chevy journal, 22mm wrist pin. Unused
JE 103mm forged pistons w/ rings and cylinders. Unused
914-2.0 heads machined for 103mm. Rebuilt with SS valves 42x36. Scat dual springs
and Scat chromo retainers.
Lightened stock flywheel. 11lb 6oz. For 215 clutch. Also balanced.
Used case bored for 103mm but not yet clearanced for the crank.
New parts are from the late 90's

Yay or Nay?

Recipe for a Grenade.

Not a good 1st engine build.

[Ninja]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif)

Parts list sounds good, but the crank is most likely a 78mm stroke which should fit with minimal case mods. I'm not sure if an 88 would fit at all.

Rebuilding to a 2055 is pretty easy. Building what you have is not.
The care needed to build a stroked big bore is significantly more.
You WILL be "blue-printing" the motor.
If this is a new term for you...

It will make more power but tuning will be more critical.
You will need a dedicated performance exhaust. (Tangerine/MSDS) and dedicated intake set up; dual 44 IDF or digital FI with ITBs.

If that kit has steel cylinders don't expect long service life. If that kit has LNs "Nickys" billet aluminum cylinders you should buy that NOW even if you don't have the needed skills.

The "rebuilt" heads would scare me. I'd have to inspect them closely. The real problem is 50 years old aluminum castings AND the stock 2 liters are prone to cracking.

An issue that has come up in many of the rebuild threads is lack of quality parts and quality machine work even from well know VW specialist machine shops.

Good luck!

[2mAn]

I had been trying to source a 1.7 case that someone here linked in the classifieds to use as a base for something less radical, but thought this would be something that has all the main items available... the 1.7 case is cheap enough that if its a good case to build off of, I could still consider that in addition to this "kit"

My understanding is that older SCAT parts are good quality and the stroker crank seems like it alone makes this a decent kit to start off with .

@mgphoto I've assembled a few Watercooled VW motors years ago... I was in the process of building an Alfa Romeo Twin Cam but sold prior to final assembly.

@superhawk996 is this because of the 103mm BORE? I was originally anticipating a 98mm max bore originally, as that seemed to be the max safe size though Ive seen others fo 103mm also.

I have always wanted to do the 'deep dive' and do the full blueprinting & balancing, hence why this feels like a good opportunity to build something fun that I could take my time with and do it right.

[Superhawk996]

It’s everything.

The 103’s and a few other issues were covered by Ninja. The problem is air cooling is completely different than water cooling and heat rejection is a constant issue. Nickies solve the majority of the issues but they are crazy expensive and I’m sure they aren’t in the parts you’ve referenced. Nickies alone are about $4.8k+.

https://lnengineering.com/vw-type-4-porsche...ukxsuZv2Hca-EgR

Building a stroker brings along its own issues that I won’t fully cover here but as you increase stroke, you drastically increase centrifugal forces and piston accelerations that aren’t completely addressed despite balancing. The T4 is basically a 3 bearing crank with two cyclinder throws between each main bearing. Not a problem at Stock HP and RPM’s but start stroking it and increasing RPM’s and cranks break.

Then there is the lightweight flywheel and its potential pro’s and con’s.

One of the main issues with T4 air cooled engines is everyone thinks they are easily hot rodded and they can get magical horsepower. . . But HP = heat. With air cooling limitations it’s not easy to get rid of the heat and the thing becomes a grenade.

Would highly recommend sticking to a 2056 build using 96mm pistons.

[iankarr]

Exactly. If you're attempting a build, I'd go with a mild and proven setup, like the 2056. Balance all rotating parts. Measure everything, then measure again. And again.

Even with a proven configuration, I wouldn't expect to get max horsepower or longevity out of the engine. If your first build gets within 10% of predicted HP and torque, and you can maintain 10PSI per 1K of RPM, that would be an impressive win. But, like I said, I'm a huge believer in learning new skills and there's just no way to really learn something like this without doing it on some level.

[mgphoto]

Good prior experience.
No mention of induction system, cam choice, but as been stated 103’s will not be a good first experience.
2270 has a lot appeal, much of the same case and head work, but no need for 5 studing the case.
There is certainly fun in chasing horsepower but having an engine that runs for years is much more satisfying than one that runs for days.

[VaccaRabite]

DO NOT buy that kit!

The 914 responds exceptionally well with 96mm cast cylinders. Whether stock stroke (1911cc for a 11.7 or 1.8 crank, 2056 for a 2.0 crank) or with a stroker crank (2258 - what I'm driving, or a 2270). All these engines are made with 96mm pistons, and its a tried and true combination.

You totally CAN make 103s and 105s work - but not at the $3000 price point. At that point you are using Birals or Nikkis and prices JUMP. ARP head studs, special hardware, internal coatings. And you still need to work out fueling and cooling.

Where you want to spend most of your money will be in the heads. Assume that old heads will need a full rebuild - and many simply are no longer rebuildable.

And the best way to build an engine is to take your engine apart. Then you HAVE to finish it. :-) These engines are completely buildable buy the regular guy with a little common sense and asking questions along the way. And building a 1911 or 2056 is just as challenging as building a stock 1.7 or 2.0.

Zach