Oil Temp Gauge Revisited, 200c temp sensor resistance vs temperature Options

[Superhawk996]

I think most people are familiar with the Panorama calibration graphics.



What I haven’t been able to find is the actual calibration curve for the 200C temp sensor that goes into the taco plate.

So . . . I went and got the data in an effort to help @ron914 troubleshoot his misbehaving oil temp gauge.

Oil was heated and a Fluke thermocouple meter was used to read oil temp. The resistance of the 200C sensor was measured both while heating and then on the cool down to get the hysteresis.

The pictures I’m going to attach later in this thread were done with a late oil temp gauge. The gauge I used pretty much matched the Panorama calibration graphics.

Here is the chart


Here is the raw data.

[Superhawk996]

Just beginning - barely above ambient

[Superhawk996]

Right around 212 as a boiling water cal point

[Superhawk996]

300F close to red zone

[Superhawk996]

Deep into red

[914Sixer]

Late gauge your using should be 340 degrees at the the red point.

[930cabman]

Post #4 is showing 300F and the factory gauge just about to enter the red area.

I'm not liking this picture

My 2056 build (2023) I added a capillary tube gauge measuring at the bottom of the sump.

Hope I am missing something

[Superhawk996]

Late gauge your using should be 340 degrees at the the red point.

Generally agree

The Panorama calibration graphics show start of red as 300F as I interpret it.

I do see about 340F at the little line on midpoint of the red zone.

Regardless, the gauge lacks numbers due to the variability and hysteresis (below 200F) that limits absolute gauge accuracy. It is intended as a directional, trend indicator not an absolute indication.

[Jack Standz]

Thanks for doing this testing. For us and for Ron.

We are looking to run our motors in the "goldy locks" temperature range. Not too cold. Not too hot. Just right.

Now it looks like we will need to calibrate our new VDO gauges to feel more confident what temperatures, pressures, voltages, amps, etc. the gauges are measuring. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif) Accuracy is underappreciated. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Was considering running an EGT gauge even though the car will be run on the street only. Now will be adding one for sure.

[Rusty_Rivets]

Superhawk, when you did your tests, did you start heating the oil and then take readings throughout the heating process, and then again during the cooling process rather than letting the oil reach a stable temperature for each measurement? The reason I ask is because the difference in readings between heating and cooling look to me to be a time lag effect rather than hysteresis. (I think VDO would have to put a lot of effort into making a sensor with hysteresis that awful. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) ) It looks to me like the thermal mass of the VDO sending unit is greater than the thermal mass of the Fluke temperature sensor. So, by the time the VDO sensor has heated to a certain temperature, the surrounding oil bath is already hotter (or colder if cooling).

[Superhawk996]

Superhawk, when you did your tests, did you start heating the oil and then take readings throughout the heating process, and then again during the cooling process rather than letting the oil reach a stable temperature for each measurement? The reason I ask is because the difference in readings between heating and cooling look to me to be a time lag effect rather than hysteresis. (I think VDO would have to put a lot of effort into making a sensor with hysteresis that awful. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) ) It looks to me like the thermal mass of the VDO sending unit is greater than the thermal mass of the Fluke temperature sensor. So, by the time the VDO sensor has heated to a certain temperature, the surrounding oil bath is already hotter (or colder if cooling).

Insightful data analysis

I did do a semi steady state when obtaining readings but it took far too long to get 100% steady state and I did begin taking readings without allowing a full equilibrium to occur. I was using a small quantity of oil and it becomes difficult to minimize the undershoot & overshoot of the oil temp at each data point with such a small thermal mass.

You are correct that the hysteresis is more of the thermal lag of the brass sensor itself. You are correct that it isn’t the actual hysteresis of the NTC resistance element alone.

The “hysteresis” won’t be that bad in vehicle due to the larger thermal mass of oil and the larger thermal mass of the engine case.

I collected the data this way in an attempt to see what the resistance range might be. At the higher temps the “hysteresis” is less because the oil and temp sensor housing more quickly come to a steady state. As it approaches temps down below 200F it was taking 10-15 minutes to get a 20F temperature drop.

As noted, these gauges aren’t meant to be considered absolute. They are there for a directional trend and an indication (red zone) that things are too hot.

I collected this data primarily to assist Ron in troubleshooting his gauge that was wildly erratic. When he powered on his gauge it was jumping up about 1/4 of the way into the scale at ambient temp. This data was a means to making sure his sensor wiring didn’t have a partial short. Likewise, I had this late gauge that I’ve never checked and wanted to make sure it was functional and close to the Panorama calibration graphics.

As a further clarification, I focused on the 212F data point and the average of four very steady state readings is 172 ohms. This falls comfortably between the heating and cooling data.
Hope that all helps it make sense.

[914Sixer]

My understanding is the gauges only needed to be ballpark numbers in order to keep them cheap like all VW parts.

[Superhawk996]

My understanding is the gauges on needed to be ballpark numbers in order to keep them cheap like all VW parts.

I don’t know for sure here’s a couple thoughts:

Not silkscreening numbers would only save a fraction of a cent. Much easier ways to save money that VW was already pursuing. Plus, the console gauges were an option package that generated revenue. Options that generate revenue aren’t usually the 1st place OEMs try to save money.

Ready? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/stirthepot.gif)

Most consumers of automobiles have absolutely no idea how to use a gauge properly.

There I said it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/happy11.gif)

Generalizing here and have seen the data when I worked at the OEM’s to be convinced of this.

Customers don’t look at gauges frequently enough to be of use or to monitor long term trends. Don’t believe me? How many of us have ever run out of gasoline despite a perfectly functional gas gauge? Or - you know friends and family that have? How many of us know someone that accidentally overheated?

This is why there was such a massive shift in the industry to idiot lights.

Sure there is money to be saved by eliminating a gauge but the best cost savings is done by getting rid of things the customer doesn’t value or doesn’t use properly that ends up creating excessive warranty. My 2012 BMW X5 doesn’t even have a temperature gauge. Drives me crazy but BMW knows the majority of BMW customers don’t know how to use it properly, won’t even look at it, and don’t value it. However it does have a completely useless instantaneous MPG gauge? Why? Because customers are keenly interested in fuel economy and value that information. Arguably if you can afford a BMW you can afford fuel. But I guarantee BMW knows their customers are more interested in fuel economy than the engine temperature.


Ready for the other big one? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/stirthepot.gif)

People don’t understand air cooled engines. Look at how many words have been said here on 914World about oil temperature. The reality is air cooling runs hotter oil temps. That’s just a fact. It’s true in your lawn mower, it’s true in air cooled motorcycles, and it is true in air cooled cars.

How many are freaked out at a red zone that starts at 300F? How many are freaked out at 220-250F oil temps which are completely normal.

So VW and others have long resorted to a middle ground which is a temp gauge but intentionally leave the numbers off so as to not to panic customers with data they don’t understand.

Excluding trucks (a different kind of customer) - how many of us have a daily that has a temperature gauge without actual temperatures? Lots.

For that matter, how many have a gas gauge calibrated in gallons? Virtually none.

I know as enthusiasts, we are a bit different and we want gauges and calibrated numbers. But it’s easy to forget that VW made these cars for the average Joe & Jane.

[930cabman]

Almost too much information here for me, from what I know Dino oil likes to run at a max of 250F

I will keep the oil temps below 250 ,but over 200F

For me that is the sweet spot

[Craigers17]

I appreciate you doing this testing. It gives us a rough idea of where things are at. To your point, I have a 2014 Nissan NV work van and it doesn't even have a temp gauge. It actually bothers me because I guess we are just supposed to HOPE that the idiot light works before I warp a head.

[Superhawk996]

I appreciate you doing this testing. It gives us a rough idea of where things are at. To your point, I have a 2014 Nissan NV work van and it doesn't even have a temp gauge. It actually bothers me because I guess we are just supposed to HOPE that the idiot light works before I warp a head.

You may want to try an OBD based display.

I use Bimmerlink with the BMW so I can see engine temp, voltage, etc. The trick is finding one where the OBD Bluetooth shuts down after key off and isn’t constantly drawing off the battery.

I use OBDLink CX but you’ll need to find something compatible with Nissan NV

In my experience if there is no coolant temp gauge most OEM’s will display a prominent warning message in the cluster along with lighting the idiot light when you hit about 250F coolant temp. Having said that - I have no direct experience with Nissan NV.