Running a dry sump 914/4 on the street?, Please share your experience Options

[Jack Standz]

Here's a dry sump oil pump from CB Performance for Type 1 motors (that can be modified to work in a Type IV) at just over $100, but you'll need additional parts like an oil tank (but 914s are already built to accept an oil tank or can be modified for an aftermarket one).

https://www.cbperformance.com/product-p/1745cl.htm

Anyone have experience with running one in a street motor? Please share.

We have been contemplating what oil pump might be best for a modified street motor. This includes: modified Type 1 (with 1, 2 or 3 o-rings to seal within the case better), rebuilt Type IV ("blueprinting" and pinned gear), and are now revisiting the possibility of a dry sump oil pump.

TIA

[URY914]

What is the reason for wanting to do this?

[914werke]

Tuna Can (IMG:style_emoticons/default/aktion035.gif)
https://914werke.com/shop/ols/products/mini-sump/v/OIL-SMP-ASM

[Dave97]

Would it be a better way to run a front cooler on a /4? Isn’t it a lot to ask of a stock pump to run a front cooler?

[GregAmy]

I run that pump on my race car, which is actually registered and plated for the street (so I can do testing tuning verifying)...

Jumping on the above...why? The only reason I went dry sump is because starting in the early-00s we started to get tires that simply were way more capacity than the tuna can could accommodate for long extended cornering. Starting roughly 1999 these engines would not survive on sticky Hoosier tires with extended cornering at places like Lime Rock Big Bend and Watkins Glen Carousel. Even the big drop sumps weren't enough capacity.

But for pretty much anything more, even a long Texas cloverleaf on street tires, it was sufficient. I'm totally fine with the stock system (not even a tuna can) on my street car.

On the other hand, I don't see much of a downside other than money and more systems to manage. It could be simplified from what I'm doing (a Canton sump tank up front) by using a replica 914-6 tank. Just curious why you think it's needed for the street. - GA

[bkrantz]

Tuna Can (IMG:style_emoticons/default/aktion035.gif)
https://914werke.com/shop/ols/products/mini-sump/v/OIL-SMP-ASM

Just don't try to straddle something hard (like alligator curbs at the old Hallet track).

[Jack Standz]

What is the reason for wanting to do this?

First, start with the issues discussed in the above link:

https://www.cbperformance.com/product-p/1745cl.htm

Connect the pressure lines to a filter, cooler and a dry sump pump and you'll have a professional 100% full flow oiling system that will free up engine RPM, reduce engine temperature, and help control crankcase blow by.

CB's 4 Gear Dry Sump System is performance proven. The inner gear set functions as pick up gears to slurp the oil from the engine case. The oil is pumped through the filter and cooler and into an oil tank. High-pressure gears draw oil from the tank and force it into the engine bearings. The engine case remains "dry" of oil/air froth while the engine is running. The paddle wheel effect of oil wrapping around the crankshaft is eliminated, allowing the engine to produce more power with reduced engine case blow by. Engine oil temperature is reduced as the oil is pumped from the heated engine case and into the dry sump tank. The reserve of oil in the tank (normally 5-6 quarts) assures constant high-pressure oil flow to the engine bearings under all operating conditions.

In addition, the issue came to mind recently when discussing an early "W" case that didn't have a windage tray. When pushing a motor hard, oil tends to accumulate in the cylinder heads as it takes a while for the oil to make its way back down to the center of the sump. So, was wondering if anyone was running a dry sump system on the street to address these issues and their experience with it. By the time you add a cooler, an external filter, lines, etc., this pump isn't that much extra time or cost (will need an oil tank too).

[bdstone914]

Here's a dry sump oil pump from CB Performance for Type 1 motors (that can be modified to work in a Type IV) at just over $100, but you'll need additional parts like an oil tank (but 914s are already built to accept an oil tank or can be modified for an aftermarket one).

https://www.cbperformance.com/product-p/1745cl.htm

Anyone have experience with running one in a street motor? Please share.

We have been contemplating what oil pump might be best for a modified street motor. This includes: modified Type 1 (with 1, 2 or 3 o-rings to seal within the case better), rebuilt Type IV ("blueprinting" and pinned gear), and are now revisiting the possibility of a dry sump oil pump.

TIA

@Yeahmag is the only 914 owner I know running a dry sump. His car is mainly an autocrosser but street legal.

[GregAmy]

...wondering if anyone was running a dry sump system on the street to address these issues and their experience with it.

Yeah, none of these are "issues" with a street-driven car on street tires.

But as with any mods, if you want it then install it. - GA

[Jack Standz]

Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

Never an issue with a motor without an anti-slosh tray (windage tray)? Wouldn’t address the above issues (like windage or crankcase pressure, oil starvation during “spirited runs on windy roads, etc.)?

[GregAmy]

Never an issue with a motor without an anti-slosh tray (windage tray)? Wouldn’t address the above issues (like windage or crankcase pressure, oil starvation during “spirited runs on windy roads, etc.)?

No.

There are thousands of these engines out there, highly modified and stock, on street tires "driving spiritly" and there's not carnage of drivers experiencing oil starvation, as long as the oil level is properly maintained. We only came across a starvation problem when running Hoosiers and only on a race track.

A 2-stage dry sump is not going to reduce crankcase pressure significantly, if at all, because the scavenge state is too busy pulling out oil from the sump. And a 2-stage won't clear out the valve covers at all since there's no scavenge stages pulling from up there. To do either or both you'd need more stages, which come with their own complexity (and fitment, since it won't fit behind the fan housing so you'll need a vertical fan housing).

Again, if you want dry sump then install it. I'll even help you design it. I'd personally go with a 914-6 repro tank just to keep it all back there in the engine compartment and make it a sano install. But if you already have, or plan to install, a front-mounted oil cooler (like I have on the race car) then you can mount the tank up front on the panel between the frunk and the fuel tank along with an additional oil filter.

- GA

(In the attached, you can see the Canton sump tank mounted behind the bulkhead, with the additional oil filters bottom left, one pre-cooler and another one pre-tank. Ignore the fuel system routing and tank, that has been replaced).

[Jack Standz]

Thanks, good info to know.

Have been considering a horizontal fan setup, but not a vertical one, nor are we considering a multi stage dry sump system (that would be just too wild for a street 914). (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

If we go with a dry sump, would likely put the oil tank in the engine compartment or back part of the 914.


Appreciate you for sharing your experience!

[yeahmag]

I put mine in because as we started making over 1G (now at 1.5+) we started having to redo the rod bearings every season. Haven't touched the motor since I made the change and we spin it to 8K RPM with stock rods. That being said, I am building a new 2250 with the Thorsten Piper pump which should be better than the modified CB pump I'm using now. The motor has countless autocross runs on Hoosier A7's at this point... years!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HstLMFBschs


I also did the mod that Jake Raby recommends of blocking off the head vents and increasing the vent size on the chimney.

[mb911]

I have had quite a few people run my 914-6 tank without the filter console in their 4cyl applications. I think most went to a track in texas that offered rentals on race cars

[Steve]

I put mine in because as we started making over 1G (now at 1.5+) we started having to redo the rod bearings every season. Haven't touched the motor since I made the change and we spin it to 8K RPM with stock rods. That being said, I am building a new 2250 with the Thorsten Piper pump which should be better than the modified CB pump I'm using now. The motor has countless autocross runs on Hoosier A7's at this point... years!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HstLMFBschs


I also did the mod that Jake Raby recommends of blocking off the head vents and increasing the vent size on the chimney.

@yeahmag . Your car is amazing. I was at Angels Stadium last Saturday and my car had understeer and was sliding all over the place. Street tires and bad driver are mostly to blame.

[Jack Standz]

I put mine in because as we started making over 1G (now at 1.5+) we started having to redo the rod bearings every season. Haven't touched the motor since I made the change and we spin it to 8K RPM with stock rods. That being said, I am building a new 2250 with the Thorsten Piper pump which should be better than the modified CB pump I'm using now. The motor has countless autocross runs on Hoosier A7's at this point... years!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HstLMFBschs


I also did the mod that Jake Raby recommends of blocking off the head vents and increasing the vent size on the chimney.

Thanks for sharing. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

We also don't run with any head or valve cover vents in the 2056. In addition, we vent the chimney directly to a catch can. Virtually no oil collects in the catch can with no detectable or meaningful crankcase pressure.

[yeahmag]

Your car is amazing. I was at Angels Stadium last Saturday and my car had understeer and was sliding all over the place. Street tires and bad driver are mostly to blame.

@Steve Thanks for the compliment! I'm signed up on 10/24 and hope to actually get to run. Life has gotten busy and complicated, so I don't get to come play as often.

[sixnotfour]

Party in the Front ..Business in the Rear.. 964 0il sytem:beer1:

[Maltese Falcon]

Party in the Front ..Business in the Rear.. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beer.gif)

Totally dig the oil-fill access through the decklid ¡

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/marty914.jpg)