Subaru Conversion, CSOB style... Options

[914turboford]

I'm not saying he should install a Ford 2.3 turbo like I did. It sounds like he is pretty set on a Subaru engine. I don't think he would have to cut the trunk with a Subaru trans. I don't think the Subaru trans are week. I've never heard that. Also, they are easier to find than 914 transmissions. At our local self serve JY there are probably one or two 2wd EJ Subaru transmissions and there have only been 2 teeners there in the last 5 years.

Here are some advantages/disadvantages of my setup. I can work on my car. I don't have to lay on the trunk to adjust the points. I don't have to work in an impossibly tights space under the car to adjust the valves.

Easy to obtain 250+ hp with 400 not unreasonable. All wear parts obtainable at Kragen. Cheap and easy to find parts. Engine can take 25 psi boost with a stock long block. Center of gravity is both higher and further back. I like the further back CG. I prefer a little oversteer. I have stiff sway bars front and rear and have the car pretty low and I am quite sure I am ahead of 90% of the teeners out there in the handling department. I did cut up my trunk floor and my right coilover tower and reinforced all of this with a nice, light cage. I know my car is stiffer than a cageless teener.

But this is about the Subaru conversion. The shift linkage will be about the easiest thing you ever do. It took me literally less than one hour to design and fabricate mine. Engine mounts are very easy as well. Usually one of the easiest parts of any conversion, IMHO. To me the hardest part of an engine conversion is the plumbing. Exhaust, coolant, power steering (NA to you), fuel, etc.

In the end, though, you should do it the way you want. It's going to be cool whether you use the Subaru or the teener trans.

[lapuwali]

QUOTE (914turboford @ Oct 5 2005, 10:36 AM)

I'm not saying he should install a Ford 2.3 turbo like I did. It sounds like he is pretty set on a Subaru engine. I don't think he would have to cut the trunk with a Subaru trans. I don't think the Subaru trans are week. I've never heard that. Also, they are easier to find than 914 transmissions. At our local self serve JY there are probably one or two 2wd EJ Subaru transmissions and there have only been 2 teeners there in the last 5 years. Here are some advantages/disadvantages of my setup. I can work on my car. I don't have to lay on the trunk to adjust the points. I don't have to work in an impossibly tights space under the car to adjust the valves. Easy to obtain 250+ hp with 400 not unreasonable. All wear parts obtainable at Kragen. Cheap and easy to find parts. Engine can take 25 psi boost with a stock long block. Center of gravity is both higher and further back. I like the further back CG. I prefer a little oversteer. I have stiff sway bars front and rear and have the car pretty low and I am quite sure I am ahead of 90% of the teeners out there in the handling department. I did cut up my trunk floor and my right coilover tower and reinforced all of this with a nice, light cage. I know my car is stiffer than a cageless teener. But this is about the Subaru conversion. The shift linkage will be about the easiest thing you ever do. It took me literally less than one hour to design and fabricate mine. Engine mounts are very easy as well. Usually one of the easiest parts of any conversion, IMHO. To me the hardest part of an engine conversion is the plumbing. Exhaust, coolant, power steering (NA to you), fuel, etc. In the end, though, you should do it the way you want. It's going to be cool whether you use the Subaru or the teener trans.

A couple of Subaru tuners have complained about the weak transaxle, at least in the era before the WRX was available in the US. The 2.5RS transaxle, for example, was known to break even in the stock application. The 2wd transaxle was intended for the granny market, basically, and doesn't take abuse kindly. It's not likely to be a huge deal, really, but using the Subaru transaxle really just trades one easily solved problem (adapter plate/flywheel) for another, and doesn't seem to gain you much. I think it ends up being a wash, at best. The advantage of the 914 transaxle is you can buy parts rather than fabricate them, which can be a huge advantage for those people who don't have ready access to machine tools or the ability to use them. Something that takes you an hour to do may be completely beyond the ability of many.

QUOTE

I am quite sure I am ahead of 90% of the teeners out there in the handling department.

That's a pretty bold statement.

One of the things I like about the Subaru conversion is that weight distribution isn't affected much over the stock setup. Scott Thatcher's fabulous radiator setup even leaves both trunks unmolested, and ends up with overall weight and distribution of weight that's nearly identical to stock.

[d914]

I think that the weak suby transaxle is more related to the drivers and the use. Modified wrx's being used for 1/4 mile dragsters and power shifting with no upgrade to the tranny equals " weak tranny's".

I'm also biased, I'm looking into the suby tranny thing...only real oustanding issue is the cv's and the rear fire wall. waiting on budget!!$$$

[914turboford]

QUOTE (lapuwali @ Oct 5 2005, 11:05 AM)

QUOTE That's a pretty bold statement.

I know it is pretty bold. I did not say better than 90% of the teeners on 914world.com. But I believe the statement to be true. Most 914's I see around are bone stock. Most don't even have sway bars. I have a 911 front end, under body 911 front sway bar, Rear 7/8" bar with spherical bearing end links and aluminum blocks for center bushings. I am pretty confident in my statement. But I obviously don't know for sure.

[banksyinoz]

QUOTE (lapuwali @ Oct 5 2005, 08:59 AM)

But to get the transverse setup to work, you had to seriously cut up the rear trunk, and no doubt moved the CG back significantly, as the engine is located well aft of the stock location. I've heard the Soob transaxles are somewhat weak even in the stock application. The 2wd versions aren't all that common these days, considering they've been all 4wd for quite a while now. I suppose you could remove the center diff and block off the tailshaft, but now you're talking trading off the flywheel/adapter plate (which can be bought off the shelf from KEP for most engines you care to name) v. having to engineer your own transaxle mounts, your own shift linkage, fabricating axles, and futzing with convering the 4wd transaxle to 2wd, etc. I also don't think of the 914 transaxle as "crappy". The tailshift linkage design wasn't the best idea, but with a side-shift linkage, the setup works a lot better than the only two Ford gearboxes I've driven ('90 Exploder and late 80s Sierra, which stands as the WORST gearbox I've ever had to use, by a large margin). The transaxle itself is plenty robust for the application it was intended for: less than 200ft/lbs of torque pushing less than 2500lbs of car.

you do not have to cut the trunk!, engine and box will fit however the drive shafts will not be square to the box/control arm but the rear extension of the box can be removed allowing the shafts to become square and the engine will fit ,however the sump will sit low (too low for my liking) so a windage sump will be fitted

i too will have shafts made i dont care what from as long as they are strong $$$$$$$$ do the job properly once

the shift linkage will be a nightmare but i think it will be worth every headache

[lapuwali]

We're talking transverse engines here, not Subaru engines, so just so there's no confusion.

914turboford cut up his trunk, and pretty seriously, too. The half the engine is behind what would be the rear trunk wall. He has photos elsewhere. Tidy job, just not my cuppa.

Fitting any transverse engine would be a challenge without cutting the trunk at all. If you push the engine forward enough to clear the induction plumbing, the shafts would be pretty seriously angled, which will cut into CV joint life pretty seriously.

[banksyinoz]

ok with ya now (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/unsure.gif)
the suby box and engine has the same problem but the other way ,the shafts have too much angle but the problem can be solved by shortening the unused part of the box (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/beer.gif)

[MattR]

QUOTE (914turboford @ Oct 5 2005, 10:36 AM)

I am quite sure I am ahead of 90% of the teeners out there in the handling department.

Are you including the rusted parted out rollers? (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif)

[lapuwali]

QUOTE (banksyinoz @ Oct 5 2005, 03:41 PM)

ok with ya now (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/unsure.gif) the suby box and engine has the same problem but the other way ,the shafts have too much angle but the problem can be solved by shortening the unused part of the box (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/beer.gif)

With the Soob engine/gearbox, you should be able to position the whole assembly anywhere you want, the only limitation being the induction plumbing hitting the rear trunk wall, which is a problem on some Soob engines, and not on others.

[jsteele22]

Holy Crap ! Its a project !

So I just checked Ebay before going home for the evening, and I saw an EJ25 engine from a 2000 Forester with 39k miles. Item was listed with a "Buy It Now" option for $500. That's less than half of what I've seen 'em going for, so (after some painful deliberation) I went for it. The ad had no pictures, but the seller does only car parts and had all good feedback.

Its gonna be pins and needles for a while; wish me luck !

p.s. Any tips on how to ship an engine cheaply ? Any good/bad/interesting stories to learn from ?

[Hydra]

Just to clear everything up, i've been working on my subaru conversion for more than 7 months now, and have considered everything from an EG33 to an EJ20, mated to a suby tranny or a 901/914....
Now, IMHO your best bet is an EJ20, cheapest of all, 150ish bhp stock (as opposed to 120 for the EJ22), and a subaru tranny... the tranny is 100$ max, and since the 914 is 30% lighter than a subaru, it won;t be stressed as much, except if you mount tyres bigger than 255's.
As for the linkage, your best bet would be to fabricate a cable shifter setup, i'm working on a cheap and straightforward design right now, so if you are interested, email me and we'll take it from there.
When it come to mounts, this is the easiest part of all, just need some steel tubes and a welder, the suby tranny mount design is pretty easy to adapt, for the engine you might need some extra bracing running under the engine to which the mounts will bolt straight up.
What lapuwali said about induction plumbing, the best way to circumvent everything and all of the suby ECU crap, would be to use MegaSquirt II, this way you'll only use the lower part of the induction plumbing, and there will therefore be no interference whatsoever with the trunk.
You will definetly need a shorter sump, and an exhaust install, all home made...
i am actually fabricating an adapter that would mount the 914's CV joints to the suby tranny output shaft, more on this later this month...
Going the suby-all-the-way route, will be IMO the soundest idea as a start and on the long run.
just my 2 cents.
good luck
Nick

[jsteele22]

QUOTE (Hydra @ Oct 6 2005, 12:17 AM)

Now, IMHO your best bet is an EJ20, cheapest of all, 150ish bhp stock (as opposed to 120 for the EJ22), and a subaru tranny... the tranny is 100$ max, and since the 914 is 30% lighter than a subaru, it won;t be stressed as much, except if you mount tyres bigger than 255's. (snip) What lapuwali said about induction plumbing, the best way to circumvent everything and all of the suby ECU crap, would be to use MegaSquirt II, this way you'll only use the lower part of the induction plumbing, and there will therefore be no interference whatsoever with the trunk.

Hmmm, didn't know about the EJ20 coming in non-turbo form. The NASIOC forum only mentions :

> USDM EJ20: US Domestic Market WRX. Found in 2002+ WRXs. Rated at 227hp
> and 217 ft-lbs. Turbocharged, intercooled, open deck, and decent heads.

and I wanted to stay away from turbo. Anyway, for now I'm planning to go w/ the EJ25 ('cuz I bought it) and the stock 901 tranny ('cuz I have one, and it sounds simpler.) I'm also gonna use an SDS EFI system which I have laying around from an old project, but I'd like to give MegaSquirt a try someday (I love the idea of an open-source, modifiable EFI system.) But I'm definitely curious to see how the suby tranny option works out for others.

[TonyAKAVW]

Congrats on the engine acquisition! Sounds like you got a good deal on the motor.

You should start up a progress thread. Its nice to have a log of what you've done and others benefit greatly too.

-Tony

[Matt Monson]

Kind of OT, but I just want to put something out there that I don't think is very known in the 914 community. There is a company up in the NW that makes a camshaft for the Ej22E engines. They are called Delta and they get their cams from Comp. They run $130 a pair, and they are welded on regrinds using your cores. When coupled with a clean breathing intake and a decent exhaust headers, they put the Ej22E about about 175chp. This is a pretty good jump for very little $$$, especially since an Ej22E out of a '90-94 Legacy can be had for a coupe of hundred $$$ while an Ej25 runs $500-1200. And installation is a breeze. Because they are rocker w/HLA heads, you just pull the rocker assembly, slide the cams in and bolt it back down. Be sure to bleed the HLA's while they are out. It does require changing the timing belt, but I would do that with any junkyard engine I bought, anyways.

Furthermore, you can take an EJ25 bottom end, and mate it to the EJ22E heads for a nice bump in both CR and displacement. It puts you at 10.8:1 with a phase I '96-98 EJ25 bottom end, and more like 11.2:1 with a phase II '99-current bottom end. That, along with the Delta cams puts you around 200chp. Bottom ends can be found for $200-400. I have built a few of these and thrown them into 2500lb Imprezas. They make for fun little cars. And in a 914 that is around 500lbs lighter, I am sure they would be a kick...

[Mueller]

QUOTE

But I'm definitely curious to see how the suby tranny option works out for others.

maybe I'm getting old/lazy or something, but a Suby automatic transmission sounds appealing (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/smile.gif)

supposed to take more abuse than the stick versions...I know there a few drag racers that are swapping out the manual trannys for the automatics.....

[Matt Monson]

Actually,
The 8 and 9 second drag cars that ESX and Rigoli Racing runs use auto trannies. Subies auto trannies are way stronger than the manuals...

[jsteele22]

QUOTE (Matt Monson @ Oct 6 2005, 11:43 AM)

Furthermore, you can take an EJ25 bottom end, and mate it to the EJ22E heads for a nice bump in both CR and displacement. It puts you at 10.8:1 with a phase I '96-98 EJ25 bottom end, and more like 11.2:1 with a phase II '99-current bottom end. That, along with the Delta cams puts you around 200chp. Bottom ends can be found for $200-400. I have built a few of these and thrown them into 2500lb Imprezas. They make for fun little cars. And in a 914 that is around 500lbs lighter, I am sure they would be a kick...

Matt, thats great stuff to know. If only I had known yesterday.....

But anyway, I'm happy so far with my EJ25 purchase decision. Turns out I was mistaken before : it only has 30k miles. I spoke w/ the seller. She said it was her daughter's Forrester and was in an accident 3 years ago where the airbags deployed. I don't know much about those beasties, but apparently when they go off its big $$$$ to fix. Mom decided not to, and finally got tired of having the car sitting around. I'm gonna get the whole shebang, including exhaust/intake, alternator, sensors, wiring harness (cut, but I'm going aftermarket EFI anyway), and maybe the radiator. The listing was for a MY 2000, with Dual OHC. The NASIOC site says that DOHC was changed to SOHC in 1999. So maybe she was off by a year ?

Anyway, I'm sure a doubling of horsepower will keep me grinning for a few months, and then if I get bored I can look into the EJ22E heads...

[jsteele22]

QUOTE (Mueller @ Oct 6 2005, 12:41 PM)

maybe I'm getting old/lazy or something, but a Suby automatic transmission sounds appealing (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/smile.gif) supposed to take more abuse than the stick versions...I know there a few drag racers that are swapping out the manual trannys for the automatics.....

Yeah, I'm feeling pretty old that way too. I got my other car ('97 Saab 900 turbo) at an auction, so I couldn't be too picky about details. It came w/ a squishbox. Now I've come to really like it. No way I could shift that fast and smoothly, and it has an electronic feature ("sport mode") that lets you alter the shift points. I also really enjoy being able to parallel park with a cup of coffe in my hand. And although tranny whine has always been the death knell of elderly Saabs, the automatic is supposed to be bulletproof. (But who shoots that low ?)

For my 914, I wanted a car that was pretty much the opposite : something zippy for getting around town, 0-35 MPH w/o turbo lag is way more important than top speed, and comfort isn't really an issue. Also, something I can diagnose and fix w/o paying $$ to someone w/ proprietary $$$$$ computer software.

[Matt Monson]

Actually,
The Forester and the Outback kept the DOHC for a year beyond the other models. So, it is likely a DOHC engine. Personally I prefer the SOHC heads, but they are both good engines. Let me know if there is anything Subaru you need as this progresses. I have a garage full of parts, sensors, valve covers, exhaust components, etc. I even have an ECU if you need one. And I would happily lend a hand here and there when I am not busy. I can live vicariously through your build since my employment kind of prevents me from putting an engine into my 914.

And putting Ej22E heads onto a complete EJ25 is going backwards. Your heads flow better than an LS-1. I am currently making 225 hp with the EJ25 in my car, and I have a set of heads out for work that should help me hit that magic 100hp/l mark. Since you are local, I can definitely help you tune your engine for more power once it is in the car...

[jsteele22]

QUOTE (TonyAKAVW @ Oct 6 2005, 09:21 AM)

Congrats on the engine acquisition! Sounds like you got a good deal on the motor. You should start up a progress thread. Its nice to have a log of what you've done and others benefit greatly too. -Tony

Thanks, Tony.

I'll look into starting up a progress thread. I do enjoy reading other peoples' threads, for fun and to answer specific questions. Maybe some day I'll even remember to bring my camera out when I start a job and keep my hands clean enough to use it. But no fair laughing at my paint !