alternative to six-ing it up..., turbo + waterboxer ??? Options

[dtravni]

hello, 914-ers - i'm sure this is not a new topic - the problem is that i'm new to 914club. anyways, here goes.

my son & i bought a pretty nice 'california car' coupla years ago & we're debating pros/cons of pushing in a 911 6 - not exactly a glide (& not exactly cheap, either). it seems to me that a worthy alternative might be
a 2 (or 2.1) 4 cylinder watercooled Vanagan engine (waterboxer) -
all things considered, a better alternative. in fact, if the aircooled 914 4
could take the thermal loading, adapting a turbo in IT would be even better. i'm of the opinion that the performance would be comparable to a
2.7+ 6, and a whole lot more agreeable in the installation (transmission, motor mounts, cabling, etc). the plumbing (exhaust, intake, & cooling seem to be more straightforward too, compared to the adaptation required for the 6-er).

i'm sure that there are some out there that have considered/done this
installation - i'd be most interested in hearing your advice & tales of joy/woe.

[nebreitling]

Welcome to the board!

a /6 really is infinitely more "plug and play" than what you are talking about. also, don't dismiss the possibilities of a Turbo'd Type IV. but, your conversion seems possible.

[Crazyhippy]

not alot of Experiance w/ the Vanagon motors, But people have done Subaru Flat 4 Swaps before,. they even offer a factory turbo'd fuel injected setup, that fits w/ cutting the car (have to do the radiator up front, but that's expected).

BJH

[goose2]

Interesting idea for sure, but the watercooled Vanagon motor is notorious for cyl head sealing problems already...with boost it may be untenable. .....I vote for air cooled six...no radiators and water plumbing to mess with and add weight. You'll get about as many opinions on this as there are motors so sit back and watch the show. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/cool.gif)

[Trekkor]

Guess what I think you should do? (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/cool.gif)

Welcome to our lair... (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/unsure.gif)


KT

[SirAndy]

QUOTE (dtravni @ Oct 24 2005, 05:42 PM)

we're debating pros/cons of pushing in a 911 6 - not exactly a glide (& not exactly cheap, either).

a /6 conversion (up to and including the 3.2L) is pretty straight forward and conversion parts are readily available.
after all, the factory did over 3000 of those themselves ... (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/cool_shades.gif)

big /4s have been done a lot as well, even with turbos ...

then there are the v6/v8 guys ...

and if you really want to tear up your tires at the drag-strip, talk to otmar about his electric (!) drag racing 914 (1000+ lbs of torque) ...

it all depends on your skills with (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/smash.gif) and (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/welder.gif) and (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/sawzall-smiley.gif) and of course the deepness of your pockets ...

oh, and welcome to the club!
(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/beerchug.gif) Andy

[ptravnic]

The orig poster of this is my pops...

I've been on the "spend a couple extra $'s and throw in a 3L 6 in there" side of the argument, he's looking for something simpler. Our facilities are modest (post a pic later) but our determination (aka idiocy) knows no boundaries...

We've split the costs on this car which means compromises must be made by both of us (as opposed to the other 3 of the suckers where he who owns it determines the $/method. Seems like $10K would go pretty fast if one were to buy the parts for a "bolt right in" conversion (which after the past 10yrs of making due w/what we have would be a welcome relief...).

Seems like from whats been written before the pendulum is swinging toward the SIX... (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/clap.gif)

[goose2]

In my opinion, a six or a big four are the simplest....no cooling system to build. The $'s per horsepower difference between a big four and a six depends on your resourcefullness. Search out some old threads for more info than you can read in a day (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/rolleyes.gif)

[davep]

QUOTE (ptravnic @ Oct 25 2005, 09:48 AM)

The orig poster of this is my pops... Our facilities are modest

If he is in Nebraska and you are in NYC, who gets to work on the project?

[Matt Monson]

Well,
Many a Vanagon owner has pulled that engine out to replace it with an EJ22E from a Subaru, if that is indication of how people think about the factory VW engine. If you are going to go with any wasser-boxer, a Subaru power plant is the way to go, especially if you want to boost it. There are plenty of factory built low compression turbo engines out there.

But the longer I am around this community, the more the purist in me takes over. As such, I am starting to feel that it is a travesty to put anything but a Porsche powerplant in my own car. But a lot of that depends on originality and uniqueness. I have a '74 2.0l with appearance group that seems to just go up in value as it sits in my garage on jackstands. If I had, say something like a '75 1.8l, there would be a Subaru swap in there by Christmas...

If the options are 6 conversion or Vanagon engine, I vote 6...

[ptravnic]

We both meet up in Buffalo to work on the car, makes sense huh?

-pt

[MecGen]

Welcome to the Club X2

I think it hasn't been mentioned that the 1.9 & 2.1 waterboxers are a piece of shit motor (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/barf.gif) 100hp ?
I have lots of experience with these motors, heads are soooo problematic, that lots of kits now exsist, to thro out the waterboxer, and install something else. I have never been able to do a solid rebiuld under 3000$, this gives a lot of budget for a swap to something else.
Please look into this, ask a local VW shop, there are just better choices for 914 watercooled swaps.

I think we have a couple father/son teams on the board (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/smilie_pokal.gif)

Good luck
+Karma for being a cool "oldman"
Later

(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/beerchug.gif)

[Katmanken]

Well,

There ya go, insulting Vanna's 2.1 engine. Vanna White, my Vanagon has a 2.1l waserboxer with 186,000 miles and it runs just fine thank you. Worst thing she did was have a head gasket leak.

Took off the heads, sandblasted the pits, used JB weld, and sanded them smooth. Added a coat of zinc chromate (like the factory) put the heads back on and off she went. Didn't even have to remove the engine.

2.1 is a real stump puller. Been times I forgot to rev it up and just popped the clutch. Van started moving and the engine didn't even slow down or grunt.

Only thing i don't like is the 30+ hoses. Seems like VW neglected to put cooling passages in the block and ran hoses around the engine instead of cast passageways.

Factory mounted the thermostat on the firewall (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/blink.gif)

Stock is 110 hp and max RPM is 5200. Marco the Steam engine on Shop Talk Forums has a 300 hp turbo one........

Some people take the waserboxer block, saw off the cooling jacket, add beetle cylinders and heads and make oxyboxers out of them. Type IV style case and sump, beetle crank, heads, and cylinders fit. Add air cooling and go.

Ken

[dtravni]

hello again - i really appreciate your replies. this discussion has helped
balance some of the pros & cons. i liked ken's reply about his experience
w/waserboxer. i took a trip in one 10+ years ago thru colorado, new mexico, arizona - was terribly impressed with the performance thru mountains - the thing was like a tractor ...&... no problems of any kind. so the open question seems to be - can it be sufficiently waterproofed to survive turbo boost?

another piece of my experience includes a 1.8L turbo new beetle (gas) - weights in at 3200 lb or so - & goes like holy hell! i try to imagine how it
would go if you unloaded 1000+ lb (like unhooking a trailer?). should be
pretty decent. this is the model i have in mind - now to find how to make it
happen.

the 6 route has a certain appeal - there seems to be more collective experience on that installation than all the rest = v.helpful - & like the tyke (ptravnic = son) keeps reminding me - 'ha-ha-ha - it's only $$$'

[Katmanken]

Yup,

Wasserboxers can be turboed. Here is Marcotheturbosteamengine's recipe for success....

"ive been making this turbo wasserboxer for 2 years and finaly got it dynoed, i found out on the dyno that my spring preasure on the seat of the valve is not enough, a can freely rev the motor to 8200 but with 15psi+ of boost the motor seems to valve flote but in a very strange way, as i increase boost the valve flote rpm becomes lower and lower respective of boost preasure, and a 26psi the motor hits a rev limit a 5900!!!!

so over the winter i will have to put bigger springs in so i can run 30psi@8200

the motor made 340bhp@5900 and 311ftLB@5250
the power starts at 4250 and hit the valve flote at 5900, but when i get it sorted it should go to 8000 as the power a 5900 was still going up!!


these are the specs of the motor

Displacement 2120cc Wasserboxer

Builder Max Morley

Crank 76.4mm Oettinger

Rods 5.4in Scat H-beams with oil hole caps.

Pistons 94mm RossRacing pistons(custom made 45cc dish!!).

Rings Total Seal

Cam/lifters WebCam 86b 114lc .474thou retarded 4deg lift with 39g 12mm stem lifters.

Heads/ valve train Stock reworked by Oliver konff single groove keepers, remmel HD outer with WBX inner, ally retainer, 911 swivel feet, 1.25 CB rockers, reworked, lightened, balanced, Berg Hd rocker shafts, Aircool.net Hd Ally pushrods.

Valves 45mm in, 40mm ex, Nimonic-90 valves 8mm stems.

Compression 7.5 to 1

Ignition MSD DIS-4, 4 MSD coil packs(coil-on-plug)Controlled by Wolf3D EMS every 125rpm.

Spark Plugs NGKs 8s.

Carburation 8 injectors Controlled by Wolf3D EMS every 125rpm.
Inlet Manifold/ turbo system 2in individle runners to a 2L plenum with a single 56mm Ford Cosworth throtalbody, 3in silicone hose to a chargecooler running to a Turbonectics T3/4 60-1 hybrid turbo .60in / .62ex 3in filter with a Mocal Oil scavenge pump

running 26psi of boost on regular pumpgas(no bull)

Exhaust 1.5/8 stainless turbo header(custom made) with a 3in exit

Flywheel Kep 200mm T4

Clutch Kep Stage2 with a Cb sprung 6 puck

Oil 76 orange stuff?

Oil Cooler Porsche 993 oil cooler

and quick thanks to everyone that helped me along the way"


Go to Shoptalkforums.com and poke around in the forced induction section , the wasserboxer/oxyboxer type 4 section, the type 4rum (type IV engine stuff) and last but not least Jakes very own forum Aircooled Technology. Search Marcothesteamengine and Marcotheturbosteamengine for big horsepower wasserboxers.

Now, I don't expect to see you for awhile..... (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/happy11.gif)

Ken

[dmenche914]

My 86 Vanagon with a 2.1 wasserboxer and 175,000 miles is more reliable than ANY 914 I have ever owned (and I had some damn good ones too) Many many miles of pulling the grade upto Tahoe with a trailer in tow. Hydrolic lifters are a joy to behold. The head gasket seal "problem" is a lack of correct maintenance issue. If you fail to change anti-freeze every other year, or use phosphate antifreeze (see owners manual recommendations) then you flirt with problems, stick to the correct antifreeze and change schedual and no problems.

I have heard than many Vanagon owners with bastard subaru engines sometimes switch back to VW power! There are stores that offer performance upgrades, I see 2.4 liters at Go Westy Co. However for many Vanagon owners, they still must put up with smog laws (ie original equipment only thank you) so the ultra high performance market is not there yet, unless you get folks putting wasserboxers in non-smoged cars such as buggies and such.

The wasserboxers were the most refined flat motor sold by VW. They are a big improvement over the air cooled motors. Only big issue is adding a radiator to the 914. I think a wasserboxer 914 would be neat. They have performance potential.

however, they are a relitivly short run engine design, and as stated, most of the vehicles they are in are subject to smog laws, sot he aftermarket is not that big on super performance stuff.

[Mueller]

welcome.....

one thing to keep in mind is the purpose of the car once built...

at least in our region of the PCA, installing a wasserboxer* engine would not let it be eligble for driver ed events or points in an auto-x....

there is one 914 in Hawaii with a wasserboxer engine, it was not built for performance at all, it basicly looks like they needed basic transportation and just thru the 1st available engine they could find into it...total stock wasserboxer motor....why bother unless you are at least doubling your horsepower....

*now what would be legal last time I checked was that it would be okay to install watercooled heads onto the Type IV motor, however, it wouldn't be easy or practical using any of the wasserboxer parts so everything would have to be custom made.


kwales,

look at the mods he's done, did you ask what kind of money he has into it?? (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/wacko.gif)

[ken914]

First, I am a purist (sort of) with 914's. I have a '70 factory 914/6 with 3.2 and wouldn't have it any other way.

On the other hand, if you are going to run water lines to a radiator I don't know why anyone would do anything other than an american V8. You can get a new crate motor for $1300 with a 50,000 mile warrantee! Block off 1st in the 901 transmission and it will run like hell all day long. The conversion has been done so many times that it is realitively straight forward, relatively cheap and there are lots of people to ask for advice. With the right aluminum V8 you can get close to if not below the weight of a factory /6.

Recap: straight forward, cost effective, LOTS of power, proven technique, plenty of people to ask for help/advice.

Seems like the obvious choice to me.

Just my 2 cents. What ever you do, have fun and be proud of it!

[davep]

QUOTE (ptravnic @ Oct 25 2005, 04:43 PM)

We both meet up in Buffalo to work on the car, makes sense huh? -pt

Well, that is not too far from me and a bunch of other boys.

[cnavarro]

My .02 cents worth, if you're going to add h2o, do a suby or a v8. Wasserboxers (or better known as waterleakers) aren't a move in the right direction, although they are indeed reliable in stock form and are well suited to pushing a heavy vanagon quite well! Keep it aircooled :-)