Subaru Fever, Choices, choices--2.5 or 2.0 T.... Options

[fiid]

Nippon sell JDM EJ20 single turbo motors for $625 or so. I would buy one of those if I did it again.

[elwood-914]

Nippon also sells a twin turo has anyone had any experience with these? Great thread by the way. I noticed "cut" harnesses, do you make up your own?

[soloracer]

QUOTE (effutuo101 @ Oct 26 2005, 03:23 PM)

(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/agree.gif) This thread is very positive. What motor/tranny combo would provide the most potential  for HP (other than WRX motor) and has the highest amount of aftermarket support.  I plan on doing my conversion early next year and want to start getting parts in December. I would love to have all of the aftermarket goodies and a turbo. I have no issues cutting up the front trunk, but would also want to put in a fuel cell.     In short, what is the best turbo motor to start with (pros and cons) for about 2-3K$? I am ok with buying a long block and using aftermarket stuff till after I get it running. I am looking at the possibility of using a palmtop to manage the motor. As our cars weigh about that of a new Z06 I want the car to be quick with a crusing rpm of 2500-3500 at 80.

I'm kind of partial to the turbo rotary engine. Huge aftermarket support and high horsepower applications with a power/torque curve that I believe suits our transmissions better than a V8.

Now as for the weight of the Z06......are you hauling 1000 lb blocks of cement that make your car as heavy as that pig?

[tgbo]

Well, I think I'll go with the EJ25 for simplicity and the assurance that the stealth radiator will work. MS or stock ecu--depends on whether or not I find a deal with an ecu or not; Fiid is right, its nice to know perzackly what your engine is doing, so if the ecu doesn't come with the motor, MS it is. Pix of the patient tomorrow.

Thoughts on using the Subaru transmission? An auto shop buddy asked about having the CV's on the axleshafts modded to fit the 914 rear hubs...possible or not? Remove the back end of the Suby trans ?

John (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/welder.gif)

[soloracer]

QUOTE (elwood-914 @ Oct 26 2005, 07:17 PM)

Nippon also sells a twin turo has anyone had any experience with these? Great thread by the way. I noticed "cut" harnesses, do you make up your own?

I have read that the twin turbo is not the way to go. Too complicated to get running with no real advantages other than it sounds cool to say "twin turbo". Much better to get the single turbo EJ25. As for the wiring harness I think if it's been cut you would have to go with something like the megasquirt or some form of stand alone engine management system.

[banksyinoz]

QUOTE (soloracer @ Oct 26 2005, 08:23 PM)

QUOTE (effutuo101 @ Oct 26 2005, 03:23 PM) (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/agree.gif) This thread is very positive. What motor/tranny combo would provide the most potential  for HP (other than WRX motor) and has the highest amount of aftermarket support.  I plan on doing my conversion early next year and want to start getting parts in December. I would love to have all of the aftermarket goodies and a turbo. I have no issues cutting up the front trunk, but would also want to put in a fuel cell.     In short, what is the best turbo motor to start with (pros and cons) for about 2-3K$? I am ok with buying a long block and using aftermarket stuff till after I get it running. I am looking at the possibility of using a palmtop to manage the motor. As our cars weigh about that of a new Z06 I want the car to be quick with a crusing rpm of 2500-3500 at 80. I'm kind of partial to the turbo rotary engine. Huge aftermarket support and high horsepower applications with a power/torque curve that I believe suits our transmissions better than a V8.

i have the suby ej2ot ,radiator in the front ,it was previosly above the engine but i disliked that, i have to admit that if my suby with auto die im going series 5/6 sidefed peripheral port t70 ball bearing ROTARY
i sold my 300hp NA 12app to finance my 914 i am not sorry the car is the best but i miss the 20 lt drum of madness (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/wub.gif)

[Matt Monson]

QUOTE (elwood-914 @ Oct 26 2005, 07:17 PM)

Nippon also sells a twin turo has anyone had any experience with these? Great thread by the way. I noticed "cut" harnesses, do you make up your own?

There are some serious performance issues with that engine. There is a flat spot in the power curve in the middle because of the pair of turbos. They are sequential, not parallel. The engine itself is an excellent engine, but if you hit some of the AUS and UK Subaru boards you will find that the guys who want some real power almost always do away with the twin turbo for a single unit, much like the Supra and RX-7 guys do.

And Fiid,
You remarked about 200 with bolt ons on an Ej25? Not gonna happen. If you run the numbers for BSFC, you find in it's stock configuration 185chp is really about the max. Bolt ons will yield you 20hp, but if you want 200+ you've got to change the cams...

[soloracer]

QUOTE (banksyinoz @ Oct 27 2005, 01:34 AM)

QUOTE (soloracer @ Oct 26 2005, 08:23 PM) QUOTE (effutuo101 @ Oct 26 2005, 03:23 PM) (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/agree.gif) This thread is very positive. What motor/tranny combo would provide the most potential  for HP (other than WRX motor) and has the highest amount of aftermarket support.  I plan on doing my conversion early next year and want to start getting parts in December. I would love to have all of the aftermarket goodies and a turbo. I have no issues cutting up the front trunk, but would also want to put in a fuel cell.     In short, what is the best turbo motor to start with (pros and cons) for about 2-3K$? I am ok with buying a long block and using aftermarket stuff till after I get it running. I am looking at the possibility of using a palmtop to manage the motor. As our cars weigh about that of a new Z06 I want the car to be quick with a crusing rpm of 2500-3500 at 80. I'm kind of partial to the turbo rotary engine. Huge aftermarket support and high horsepower applications with a power/torque curve that I believe suits our transmissions better than a V8. i have the suby ej2ot ,radiator in the front ,it was previosly above the engine but i disliked that, i have to admit that if my suby with auto die im going series 5/6 sidefed peripheral port t70 ball bearing ROTARY i sold my 300hp NA 12app to finance my 914 i am not sorry the car is the best but i miss the 20 lt drum of madness (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/wub.gif)

A 300 HP peripheral port 12A in N/A form is pretty impressive. A friend of mine has just finished building his 13B PP and is hoping to make similar power numbers. We are starting on my 20B three rotor peripheral port build next week. Just waiting for the high compression rotors and peripheral port housings to come in. I'm aiming for 450 HP in N/A form. Won't know how close we come until I get the engine in the 914 and running which will probably be another year or so away.

[fiid]

QUOTE (Matt Monson @ Oct 27 2005, 07:09 AM)

QUOTE (elwood-914 @ Oct 26 2005, 07:17 PM) Nippon also sells a twin turo has anyone had any experience with these? Great thread by the way. I noticed "cut" harnesses, do you make up your own? There are some serious performance issues with that engine. There is a flat spot in the power curve in the middle because of the pair of turbos. They are sequential, not parallel. The engine itself is an excellent engine, but if you hit some of the AUS and UK Subaru boards you will find that the guys who want some real power almost always do away with the twin turbo for a single unit, much like the Supra and RX-7 guys do. And Fiid, You remarked about 200 with bolt ons on an Ej25? Not gonna happen. If you run the numbers for BSFC, you find in it's stock configuration 185chp is really about the max. Bolt ons will yield you 20hp, but if you want 200+ you've got to change the cams...

The twin turbo engine is a nightmare to get going. Nippon doesn't give you the solenoid box, and even converting to single turbo (which is what I did) is a bit of a pain.

The flat spot is known as the "Valley of death" - it occours when the first turbo runs out of puff at about 3400 through to about 4000rpms. It's supposed to be curable with some tweaking of the engine management computer, but that's a non-trivial operation with the stock stuff. Replacing the stock management is not easy since the turbo control is quite complex. As an example - couple of the turbo control valves are actuated using a vacuum. Well - theres no vacuum around in a turbo engine that's on boost, so the stock application has an air tank with a one way valve on it - which has all the air sucked out of it when the manifold is at vacuum. It then uses that vacuum to actuate the valve.

One other thing Nippon doesn't supply is the MAF (Mass Airflow) Sensor for the stock FI computer (which they will sell you. Mine is sitting on a shelf looking complex and uninteresting). Even finding technical data for the engine is hard.

I was planning to get the twin turbo going. Maybe I don't have the right hookups, but I found it a nightmare to source all the valves and fittings to actually get a complete system together. Even sourcing the appropriate stuff for a single turbo was non-trivial.

The twin turbo engine is also (stock) tuned to run on like 100RON fuel. I think that US premium isn't quite as good as that - particularly in California, but I haven't done the math - it's something to be aware of.

There are numerous solutions to the twin turbo problem. Some engines in japan have been converted to run bi-turbo instead of sequential turbos. Others have just gone to a larger single turbo. I believe the motive for the twin turbo setup is that the legacy is a bit of a heavy car for a little 2 litre, and it would be a bit gutless without help from get-go. The primary (smaller) turbo is REALLY aggressive and kicks in at 1000-2000rpm. I believe a more modern ball-bearing turbo or twin-spool turbo can get you the same effect without the control issue.

I have found virtually no aftermarket solutions (haven't looked too hard either) that will manager a sequential twin turbo setup.

I had an Imprezza with an EJ25 in it. When I switched to a K&N filter and a cold air intake I notice significantly better engine reponse, coupled with better fuel economy (wha?) .... the 200HP number was just a Wild Ass Guess, I don't really know how restrictive the exhast is. I bet a true equal length header would help a lot though.

The 2.5 Imprezza was not slow - and the imprezza weighs something like 2800lbs (maybe more). It's main issue was the suspension simply wasn't set up.

[ArtechnikA]

QUOTE

When I switched to a K&N filter and a cold air intake I notice significantly better engine reponse, coupled with better fuel economy

did you have issues with filter oil contaminating the MAF? that seems to plague just about every MAF car that tries oil-wetted filters, and one reason i've avoided them.

the Outback's intake is from the grille through a duct, into the rightside fenderwell and then into the filter and MAF plenum. i looked (very briefly) for some air source that would be both colder and in high pressure freestream air and nothing looked obvious. where do you take in cold air? i have given some thought to making the faux hood scoop functional but i'm a bit concerned about water aspiration...

i'd also like to add an aux trans fluid cooler but there are no trivially likely freestream air sources at the left front corner either...

[fiid]

QUOTE (ArtechnikA @ Oct 27 2005, 09:44 AM)

QUOTE When I switched to a K&N filter and a cold air intake I notice significantly better engine reponse, coupled with better fuel economy did you have issues with filter oil contaminating the MAF? that seems to plague just about every MAF car that tries oil-wetted filters, and one reason i've avoided them. the Outback's intake is from the grille through a duct, into the rightside fenderwell and then into the filter and MAF plenum. i looked (very briefly) for some air source that would be both colder and in high pressure freestream air and nothing looked obvious. where do you take in cold air? i have given some thought to making the faux hood scoop functional but i'm a bit concerned about water aspiration... i'd also like to add an aux trans fluid cooler but there are no trivially likely freestream air sources at the left front corner either...

Don't quote me on this - but I think my Imprezza (2001) was MAP based, and I didn't have any problems with it at all.

I believe that most of the benefit of the cold air intake was having a virtually straight piece of 3" pipe for an intake. It was taking air from the fenderwell instead of from just above the radiator.

The stock intake had a number of plenum chambers on it and somewhat abrupt corners on it. It was also quite narrow. I assume this was to reduce intake noise.

[lapuwali]

100RON would be roughly 94-96 (R+M)/2. The usual rule of thumb is MON is 8-12 points lower than RON for the same fuel. However, European "premium" is 98RON, which puts you at 93 best case, and we can only get 91 in CA now. So, I think there's some wiggle room. You could always just run a bit less boost.

Still, it sounds like the whole setup is a real nightmare, as you say. I'd want to ditch all of the OEM engine management in favor of a fully programmable setup, anyway, and a single turbo is much easier to control with a DIY setup.

[Matt Monson]

Fiid,
is that a twin turbo ECU or single turbo one you have just sitting there gathering dust. If it is a single, I might be inerested. shoot me a pm with a price.
A little secret for a MAF based engine that doesn't come with one. All the USDM JECS ones used on '90-94 Legacies are the same as the JDM turbo ones. Just avoid the Hitachi unit used on some of the automatic transaxle vehicles. I have one if anyone needs one, but it is a common junkyard part. Don't pay Nippon an arm and a leg for one. Same with the boost control for the single turbos. USDM '91-94 Ej22T Legacy turbos use the same boost control solenoid and pressure sensor assembly.The big challenge is the four channel ignitor, as the Ej20's use a coil on plug ignition. The solution is to wire in 2 2 channel ignitors or get a 6 channel ignitor from an SVX and only use 4 of the channels. If there is any other technical information you or others need, let me know. I have pintouts and wiring diagrams and many of those "hard to find" JDM parts sitting in the garage...

And you gas mileage went up with an intake because from the factory they are tuned pretty rich, and the intake leans it out a bit. the car becomes more efficient as well as more powerful. And you are correct, your '01 was MAP based. They are better for many applications. And an equal length header will give you about 12whp.

Rich,
As long as you don't overoil your K&N, you won't have a problem with it on a MAF car. I have used them on many of the builds I have done. As for getting your cold air, you pull it from the fender. There is an operation known as a "snorkelectomy" where you remove the resonator in the fender. Then you can run straight into there and pull fresh air. But "ram" air like you describe does not get along well with your MAF. The open hood scoop is a bad idea. You loose a ton of bottom end. There is som value to some length of the intake plumbing...

[effutuo101]

"Now as for the weight of the Z06......are you hauling 1000 lb blocks of cement that make your car as heavy as that pig? "

I thought i had totally screwed up the numbers, but i checked again and this is what I got:

curb weight of the Z06 3,130 lbs
curb weight of the 914 2,892 lbs
from Google.
238 lb more than a 914. I guess (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/welder.gif) , (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/smash.gif) (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/sawzall-smiley.gif) and I could loss a few more. fiberglass hood and trunk....hmm. maybe see 2200 at the curb? Then I would only need to see about 330-350 at the wheels to match the Z06. 300 would be reliable. And the Vette wouldn't be able to take me for a walk. I think that we could do a suby conversion that would embarass a Vette owner.

[soloracer]

Funny but I thought most of the guys here were looking at a curb weight of 2200 lbs - with a V8 engine no less. Don't know where you got that 914 curb weight from. My car weighs 1400 lbs without an engine. Can't imagine a Type IV weighing 1400 lbs - can you?

[Mueller]

QUOTE (effutuo101 @ Oct 27 2005, 09:54 PM)

"Now as for the weight of the Z06......are you hauling 1000 lb blocks of cement that make your car as heavy as that pig? " I thought i had totally screwed up the numbers, but i checked again and this is what I got: curb weight of the Z06 3,130 lbs curb weight of the 914 2,892 lbs from Google. 238 lb more than a 914. I guess (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/welder.gif) , (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/smash.gif) (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/sawzall-smiley.gif) and I could loss a few more. fiberglass hood and trunk....hmm. maybe see 2200 at the curb? Then I would only need to see about 330-350 at the wheels to match the Z06. 300 would be reliable. And the Vette wouldn't be able to take me for a walk. I think that we could do a suby conversion that would embarass a Vette owner.

your google engine is smoking crack (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/smile.gif)

QUOTE

Curb weight according to DIN      970 kg / 2139lb Max. total weight                         1220 kg / 2690 lb Max. axle load, front*                  650 kg/ 1433 lb Max. axle load, rear*                   650 kg/ 1433 lb

[effutuo101]

agreed. but that is what the http://vista.pca.org/stl/914.htm states as stock curb weight.
Curb weight: 2,892 lbs
Wheelbase: 94.5"
Length: 170.9"
Width: 68.3"
Height: 50.2"
Track front/rear: 58.2"/57.1"
Ground clearance: 4.9"


I know when I had my car stripped down, three of us could carry it around the garage. Even with everything (sans motor) in the car, 4 of us lifted it up onto a trailer.
Dunno.
(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif) maybe I should get the lead out of my butt!

[Mueller]

that site is incorrect, please erase that figure from your memory banks and never repeat it again (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif) (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/laugh.gif)

[soloracer]

I agree with Mueller. Just because a website says the 914 weighs nearly 3000 lbs doesn't mean that is the case. Does anyone here have a 3000 lb stock 914? Probably not. Even so, another way of looking at it is that at 3130 lbs that is the lightest that vette will ever be because of all the carbon fibre/titanium. Where can the car be made lighter? Whereas with the 914 getting to 2000 lbs and under isn't that big of a challenge.

[effutuo101]

(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/unsure.gif) LOL! erased...what were we talking about here? Oh yeah. the amount of HP it would take to make a Vette owner cringe. I think i will go get my car weighed. I can start there and make some realistic numbers. Mayby a 300 hp turbo will do the job... (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/beerchug.gif)