Subaru transmission installation, Now it's a reality!!! Options

[nsyr]

I'm still trying to figure out the axle solution. I went to the junk yard today and got an axle from a suby. The output shaft is too small for the 914 hub.

[jimkelly]

one good step - forward.

This image and my comments may be more confusing than helpful but I will submit it anyway : )

Jim

[nsyr]

the subaru axle diameter is the same as the inner race of the 914 cv, however it has coarse splines (25 teeth). If the bus axles had 25 teeth then we would need only 2 adapters instead of 4. You would have the bus axle with the suby cv/tranny flange on one end and the bus cv and adapter on the other. Of course I don't know any details of bus axles.

[jimkelly]

see this thread - it does not answer our questions but has some good info that may be usefull ??

Jim

http://www.pelicanbbs.com/posts/85756.htm

[stock93]

Bus axle spline count is 33. 930 is 28 spline. Sway a way makes custom length axles in the 33 and 28 spline. You could use type 2/4 cv joints or 930s with a modified stubaxle and trans cv flange. IIRC the axles are around $250 for custom length. Depending on what you need it may not be a custom length. Bus axles from 69-79 are 18 3/4 in long. 924/thing axles are 16 1/8. Bug axles are 16 5/16. The shorter of the two vanagon axles for an 80-83 auto might work. I think they are around 19.5 IIRC.


John

[nsyr]

since the subaru drive shaft is longer can it be cut and machined to except a 914 cv on the outer end?

[jimkelly]

Looking back on all the thought being giving to the axles/cvs - my current thought is for one of us to get the engine and tranny installed in a 914 wit the sub tranny outputs properly oriented/horizontal with the 914 hubs. Once installed it is final position we can thenget exact dims needed.

As ar as cutting the sub axles and resplining them I assume enough metal needs to be remaining on the axles after they have been cut and the diameter has to be at least enough as well.

The question I have is will the motor mount that either scott thacher or tonyakavw are using work for us? They are both using 901 trannys and the kep conversion parts they are using put an additional dimension between their 901 tranny and their sub engine. I do not know exactly how much space they have between their engine's and their rear firewall. But deciding - for lack of a better word - on a motor mount possibly should be first priority.

Also note that Scott rotated the intake manifold on his engine so tat the throttle body can fit under in the engine bay without cutting, he removed his egr, and tony decided to cut down his oil pan to reduce the chances of bottoming out on it. besides needed to relocate the alternator - I do not know how many other things we need to consider that may effect the style of the engine mount or tranny mount for that matter.

Jim

(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/popcorn[1].gif)

[nsyr]

I have my suby engine and trans in the car on stands (no mounts yet). Even with an adapter the 914 driveshafts seem to be too long. They hit the output flanges of the transmission.

[jimkelly]

I have no doubt you are correct that the 914 axles/cvs are too long - if one takes tis as fact the option probably are many - but two are - bus axles/cvx with custom adaptors on either end - or totally custom axles/cvs from maybe one of the two shops so far listed in this thread for I hope not more than $350 a set?

The option is of course to go with the 901 tranny and KEP adaptors thus not having the axles/cv problem/cost and not having to buy the aussy parts for a sub awd tranny but I think I know what we prefer (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/wink.gif)

So you have your engine in the engine bay with the sub tranny mounted to it and the output shafts are in the proper location that when when the car is on its opwn weight the axles with be horizontal and even with the sub output flanges - if so how much room is there left between the engine and the rear engine bay - and have you rotated your intake manifold ??

Jim

[nsyr]

I don't have a final position for the engine/trans yet. I have a turbo so clearance is an issue. If it wasn't for the turbo I could have the axles square with the hubs. i may have to cut for the turbo, but i will worry about it when i get to it. Once I have the cv/driveshaft situation taken care of then I will have a better idea of engine position.
This is just a random pic of underneath.

[Porcharu]

Hmm, something different is going on here. I don't have the little stubs at the CV outputs my trans uses a one piece cv/stub that just plugs into the trans like a honda. I'm sure the splines are the same because the aftermarket diffs fit the turbo and na transmissions. You may have more room with the NA one piece cv/stubs.

[Mueller]

QUOTE (jimkelly @ Jan 22 2006, 08:34 PM)

The option is of course to go with the 901 tranny and KEP adaptors thus not having the axles/cv problem/cost and not having to buy the aussy parts for a sub awd tranny but I think I know what we prefer (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/wink.gif)

$600 or so for the KEP stuff.....the axles look pretty cheap to me (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/smile.gif)

besides, you are getting a more modern and not as used/abused transmission using the Subaru transmission....I wouldn't even consider using the 901 if I had a choice...

[Porcharu]

QUOTE (jimkelly @ Jan 22 2006, 06:16 PM)

Looking back on all the thought being giving to the axles/cvs - my current thought is for one of us to get the engine and tranny installed in a 914 wit the sub tranny outputs properly oriented/horizontal with the 914 hubs. Once installed it is final position we can thenget exact dims needed. As ar as cutting the sub axles and resplining them I assume enough metal needs to be remaining on the axles after they have been cut and the diameter has to be at least enough as well. The question I have is will the motor mount that either scott thacher or tonyakavw are using work for us? They are both using 901 trannys and the kep conversion parts they are using put an additional dimension between their 901 tranny and their sub engine. I do not know exactly how much space they have between their engine's and their rear firewall. But deciding - for lack of a better word - on a motor mount possibly should be first priority. Also note that Scott rotated the intake manifold on his engine so tat the throttle body can fit under in the engine bay without cutting, he removed his egr, and tony decided to cut down his oil pan to reduce the chances of bottoming out on it. besides needed to relocate the alternator - I do not know how many other things we need to consider that may effect the style of the engine mount or tranny mount for that matter. Jim (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/popcorn[1].gif)

I hope to start on mine sometime soon - having a new baby and trying to start a new career (and a home bussiness all at once) is slowing me down a bit.
My idea for a mount is different from Scotts of Fiids because I am doing a differnt task mounting both the engine and trans using the original 914 mounting points (just for fun I plan on having the radiator mounted on the same subframe to make a one piece powertrain unit that can by easily removed.)

[jimkelly]

Steve,

I was told that if you pull hard enough - not a god thing to do - the stud output splined axle will come out of the sub tranny.

One piece unit - hum - we are all looking forward to that.

The more I think about it the more the concept of standard style/length axles/cvs is not reasonable if each of us are using a different engine/tanny mount system thus different axle.cv requriements possibly.

I just read an email from Todd at http://www.precisionalloy.com and he is asking for a bus axle/cv, a sub output stub flange, and a 914 wheel hub flange from anyone who may be interested in a quote for custom adaptors for a bus axle/cv assy.

Jim

--

Todd,
Right now we are trying to get one of the guys to actually get the engine and tranny solidly mounted in a 914. Once this is done we will know exactly what dimensions we will need and if bus axles/cvs - in our opinion - will leave enough room for adaptors. If so we will likely contact you then - send you a bus axle/cv, a sub output stub flange, and a 914 wheel hub flange. If you can get the price lower if we order multiple sets - that would help. $200 for adaptors and then another $125 for bus axles/cvs is $325. I am not 100% certain but it is possible we can find a vendor who can make complete custom axles/cvs for about $350. My guess is that for the $25 difference - most would choose the complete custom axles/cvs - but there may be reasons that I have not yet thought of - or have been discussed -that favor adaptor besides total price??
Thank you,
Jim

--

-----Original Message-----
From: Todd Francis [mailto:tbf@pacifier.com]
Sent: Friday, January 20, 2006 4:05 PM
To: KELLY, Jim J.
Subject: Re: custom flanges ...
Well, I really don't know how adapting the subie flanges will go.
Configuration, type of steel, way of holding it for machining, etc. If you
get one and want to send it to me I will make a determination of how much it
will cost. I generally charge $50 each for the flange work and the same for
the stub axles. I may have stubs in stock, I'm not sure. If I do they may
be made to 930 CV's. Can you flop the ring gear in a subie or do they work
in the right direction stock? I have never thought about them.
Todd Francis
Precision Alloy LTD.
http://www.precisionalloy.com

[nsyr]

QUOTE (srbliss @ Jan 23 2006, 02:17 AM)

Hmm, something different is going on here. I don't have the little stubs at the CV outputs my trans uses a one piece cv/stub that just plugs into the trans like a honda. I'm sure the splines are the same because the aftermarket diffs fit the turbo and na transmissions. You may have more room with the NA one piece cv/stubs.

The stubs are just that; they go into the spider gears and are held in by c-clips. I have an awd auto that i will pull the diff out of and check it out.
srbliss - do you have any pics?

[jimkelly]

Andrew,

Are you gonna use and awd automatic?

I contacted saker and they did not think their awd conversion stucff would work on an auto awd.

Jim

[GS Guy]

Hey guys, wanted to add my 2 cents as I'm interested in hearing how this conversion works out. Though I'm building a custom mid-engine vehicle, I'm also using a turbo Subaru engine and was planning to use the 914 trans. I have a typical $200 used trans, all cleaned up but untouched inside - mostly used for mock-up to this point. You know the drill, once I open it up to re-seal I'll likely have many hundreds of $$ worth of parts really needing replacement. Add to that the KEP 9" flywheel and adapter kit, plus matching clutch (another $900) it adds up fast. I'm on the waiting list for a KEP kit right now, and considering calling them up and cancelling if the Suby trans idea works out. I had Todd at precision Alloy do me up a set of custom 914 output stubs that take T2 CVs for this conversion, and no doubt he could do something similar for the Suby trans.

IMHO, the way to do the conversion would be to have a pair of custom output flanges made up for the Subaru trans. These would be a whole lot like the standard T1/T2 IRS output flanges - a Subaru matching splined hub with T1/914 (or T2 in my case) CV matching flange, with a dowel pin hole to attach onto the Subaru output stub. Then use a the original 914 CVs and a set of aftermarket axles. Check the axle sizes available at TRE/SAW:
http://www.taylor-race.com/index.HTM
http://www.swayaway.com/VW%20frameset.htm

It seems to me if you only have to purchase off the shelf axles and custom output flanges - that seems like a less expensive way to go than a full set of custom axles and CVs? FWIW I priced a set of custom 33(T2)/28(930) spline axles from SAW (ie: nothing too special!), they quoted ~ $600/pr, just for the bare axles!
The "estimated" price from Raxles seems to be too good to be true - especially considering the somewhat limited market potential?

Back into lurk mode - but will be following this development closely. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/idea.gif)
Jeff

[nsyr]

if the output stubs were not there and if the 914 output flanges would fit into the suby tranny then the 914 axles would be a perfect fit. the only reason i said they are too long is that they hit the output stubs. take away the stubs, add 914 flanges and it's good to go.

then there would be no need for custom axles or cv's

[jimkelly]

As I understand it the stubs are removeable. How much room the there between the 914 axle flange and the tranny? Maybe all we need is a custom output stub that has a flange?

How far does the output stub protrude from the sub tranny?

Jim

[nsyr]

the width of the tranny at the output is the same as the 914 tranny. the stub only comes out about an inch.
the 914 flange idea would be perfect if it can be made to work. i think i'll pull a suby diff and the 914 diff today and compare the two. maybe the spider gears can be changed. i doubt it, but i am just thinking out loud.