Subaru transmission installation, Now it's a reality!!! Options

[Porcharu]

QUOTE (slivel @ Jan 3 2006, 09:39 AM)

Does anyone know if the output shafts of the Suby trans are in the same vertical and horizontal planes as the Porsche trans? If not how much are they different? I'm not sure how much constant angle a CV joint can take on a continouus basis if the locating points are significantly different. Also I haven't heard a good explanation (either) of what CV's, axles, or adapters are going to be required. Anyone???

The outputs are slightly different. I know that the Suby outputs are closer to the bellhousing flange (I think by about 1-1/2") and I "think" they are a little bit higher up on the case. I will try to measure things this evening.

I plan on mounting the whole thing so the CV outputs are in the stock 914 location - this should allow an extra 1-1/2 more room in front of the engine for my unique radiator idea. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/idea.gif)

I am still waiting to recieve my halfshafts from the Suby (I forgot to pick them up) once I have them I should have a good idea on what is needed to mate the Suby trans to the 914 hubs.
Steve

[Mueller]

Hey Steve...

I know on the V8 conversions the transmission is moved back at least 1.50", it might even drop down a little...anyone confirm or deny that?

oh yea, thanks for the manual for the computer...

[nsyr]

After doing some research, I believe the way to hook up the cv's is to use 914 shafts and cv's adapted to the suby's output flange/cv. This is done by cutting down the suby flange (cutting off the cv part) and affixing the 914 cv to the remaining part. I still don't know how it would attach, the cv has a much larger diameter than the flange. Any thoughts?

[Porcharu]

I finally got my axles - and they are crap. Covered in boat anchor type rust. They go back on Monday. I should have good ones by end of next week.

If the splines are different from the 914 the easiest way to adapt will probably be to cut (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/sawzall-smiley.gif) the Suby joint off so just the flange remains and machine a new 914 bolt flange to weld (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/welder.gif) to what is left of the Suby part.

[nsyr]

(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/agree.gif)
That is exactly what i was thinking. Take a look at the spyder at this website. He is using 914 trailing arms with a suby tranny. The pics are small and not very focused on the cv's, but I believe that is what this person did. I tried emailing him but it came back as undelivered.

[speedster356]

Sorry about that, I must update the email address on my site.
That's my 550 replica with the Subaru WRX/2WD gearbox. I bought the car in NZ quite a few years ago with the smaller 1.8ltr turbo and 2WD box, I installed the WRX engine and Liberty box about 1.5 years ago. I'm sure that the drive shafts are Subaru and mated to the 914 CVs as suggested above at the outboard ends. I currently have the box out to install an LSD so I'll get some photos and post them tomorrow. I found the 2WD box was fine for hillclimbs, supersprints and plenty of drag racing. Having said that I dont do 6000 RPM launches though. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/smile.gif) I also only run small 195/50/15 Yokohama AO32Rs so the box hasn't been loaded up very much at all plus the cars race weight is only 720kg. I can be contacted now via this website.
Cheers from downunder
Pete Mcleod.

[jimkelly]

Despite $500 for the aussy conversion parts - it is still a less expensive option than - KEP parts - nothing at all against KEP as they are first class - I am watching this thread as I am interested in the lowest cost option to putting bigger HP in my 914. Keep us posted : )

[Mueller]

QUOTE (jimkelly @ Jan 17 2006, 05:49 AM)

Despite $500 for the aussy conversion parts - it is still a less expensive option than - KEP parts - nothing at all against KEP as they are first class - I am watching this thread as I am interested in the lowest cost option to putting bigger HP in my 914. Keep us posted : )

i agree....I like the fact that one could go down to the Subaru store and buy the flywheel or whatever parts that wear out more easily.

[Porcharu]

QUOTE (jimkelly @ Jan 17 2006, 04:49 AM)

Despite $500 for the aussy conversion parts - it is still a less expensive option than - KEP parts - nothing at all against KEP as they are first class - I am watching this thread as I am interested in the lowest cost option to putting bigger HP in my 914. Keep us posted : )

The cost of the Ausi parts was more like $225 USD delivered, not $500.

[Mueller]

QUOTE (srbliss @ Jan 17 2006, 01:56 PM)

QUOTE (jimkelly @ Jan 17 2006, 04:49 AM) Despite $500 for the aussy conversion parts - it is still a less expensive option than - KEP parts - nothing at all against KEP as they are first class - I am watching this thread as I am interested in the lowest cost option to putting bigger HP in my 914.  Keep us posted : ) The cost of the Ausi parts was more like $225 USD delivered, not $500.

any idea when you'll be getting the parts?

had any time to work on your Bridgeport?

[fiid]

I could easily be persuaded to go with a subaru trans if we can work out the adaptation in a reasonably cost effective manner.

Any ideas if it would be possible to adapt the 6 speed from the STi? I seem to remember that the Aussie sleeves wouldn't work with that transmission... How much is an STi tranny likely to cost?

[Porcharu]

QUOTE (Mueller @ Jan 17 2006, 01:04 PM)

QUOTE (srbliss @ Jan 17 2006, 01:56 PM) QUOTE (jimkelly @ Jan 17 2006, 04:49 AM) Despite $500 for the aussy conversion parts - it is still a less expensive option than - KEP parts - nothing at all against KEP as they are first class - I am watching this thread as I am interested in the lowest cost option to putting bigger HP in my 914.  Keep us posted : ) The cost of the Ausi parts was more like $225 USD delivered, not $500. any idea when you'll be getting the parts? had any time to work on your Bridgeport?

I think the parts are shipping right now
The baby is slowing stuff down a bit (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/blink.gif)
So far on the mill I have a nice VFD to take care of the 3-phase problem, some really cool encoders to use for MPG's and a set of huge 1.2HP AC servos for the axis drives.
(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/boldblue.gif) (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/aktion035.gif)

[wbergtho]

Here's my two cents: I have a 500HP LS6 crammed into my 74 and have learned a few hard lessons along the way. Of course, my car is a bit extreme and requires a more robust gearbox than most projects out there, there are a few freaks (like myself) that want to explore insane performance and at the same time have a certain degree of reliability. I would say that if your project gets close to the 400HP range...you are now entering the broken 915 transaxle zone...and often! I started with 450HP and knew a 901 wouldn't handle it...so I had a 915 built at CA Motorsports (LSD, tall 5th, reversed ring & pinion, etc) to the tune of $4,600. I put 2K on the car and blew 2nd gear off the shaft! I rebuilt the trans again at CA Motorsports, upgraded my motor to 500HP and said goodbye to the 915 on E-Bay. The guy who bought it has around 400HP and should have way better luck with it. Now what to do? With an open budget, the best option is a G50/50 turbo transaxle inverted and connected to a custom cable actuated sideshifter. Here's the problem...I don't own Microsoft and don't have $12,000-13,000 laying around. Believe it or not, that's what that system costs w/ clutch and all. So I ended up having my favorite trans expert, Bobby Hart of CA Motorsports, build be a reversed ring & pinion, short bell 930 turbo gearbox. It won't shift nearly as well as a modern G50 series gearbox...but it'll handle over 700 HP with the use of an oil cooler and Tilton pump spraying back on the R&P. What's more is the gearing is roughly the following: 1st gear = 60 mph, 2nd gear=90mph, 3rd=130mph+, and 4th=190mph plus (assuming my Sheridan body work is as slippery as I think it is. The 930 Box will cost me around $6,000 (I found a cheap good core for $500). Most cores cost $1500-2,000. So, the moral of the story is simply...."If you are running 400 HP or more and don't want to shred your gearbox every other weekend, you'll spend between $6,000-8,000 for a proper gearbox with usable gear ratios." If you've had better luck with the 915 than I have...I'm happy for you and wish you continued good luck. Perhaps I'm a bit hard on my car at times? I just want reliability and although I'm not rich...I'm willing to spend a bit of $ in the gearbox department. As far as Audi, Subaru, Renault, etc. I think their gear boxes can be made very reliable for motors putting out 300-350HP...any more power and you are entering the "expensive broken gearbox zone". Just my two cents...

[jimkelly]

At this point I am considering once again a sub conversion. I have a local dealer that comes across sub engines and trannies ona regular basis. He is not a fan of the EJ25 due to head gasket problems but likes the 2.2 and says a turboed 2.2 could give plenty of HP. I think even 135 Hp of naturally aspirated 2.2 HP would move a 914 pretty nice versus the 90 give or take HP I have now. Engine $350 and tranny $450 or so. Anyway I am watching this thread as a sub conversion is light, radiator in engine bay and cheap - SBC V8 new crate motor $1300, KEP stuff $1000, radiator set up in front $500 or so. My two sense : )

[jimkelly]

Guys, reading this thread has me a bit confused. Is a 5spd AWD tranny with the aussy parts the only option? I saw a mention in one post of using a sub fwd tranny but am not sure if the poster meant 5spd FWD or auto FWD or if either should work in addition to converting an 5spd AWD tranny. I have a local sub expert : ) who says the older EJ25 have some problems, he is a proponent of the EJ22 2.2 and suggests a turboed 2.2 for more power than stock of 135HP and better reliability over a EJ25. Just wanted to mention that. It is nice to know a sub 2.2 motor and sub tranny would cost less than $1000. Jim

[nsyr]

There are 2wd trannys. They can be found in the older legacy's and impreza's. I have one of these which is what I will be using. the awd (all wheel drive) are more than likely built stronger to deal with the added stress of driving four wheels.

[jimkelly]

So the prevailing thought is that both auto and 5spd FWD trannys would install as well as a modified AWD tranny would. The benefit of the AWD tranny is that since 1993 or so all subs had AWD and there is much more aftermarket parts available for them as well.

Man - I am pumped by this essentially new revelation. Scott Thatcher mentioned to me in the past that he thougth a sub auto tranny could be used but you guys finding the aussy company that makes the bits to convert an AWD tranny are really on to something.

Being a Bolt On world - I would welcome a it that included most everything - except engine and AWD tranny - to install this stuff into a 914 such as brackets, cables, custom cv flanges maybe mated to vw bus or other axles, motor mount, tranny mount, etc.

Did I say that I am digging this thread. It willlead to the lowest cost conversion possible. Even a mild EJ22 2.2 135 HP conversion would be well worth the under $1000 cost : )

[jimkelly]

My question to Saker and their response ...

note: my daily driver is a 1993 subaru impreza 1.8 with FWD - the aspect of subaru putting AWD in all cars since then had not really been absorbed by my brain : ) Oh yeah I still wear bell bottoms and have long side burns - get I better get with the times : )

--------------------------

Some are asking on the above thread - why not just use a subaru FWD tranny instead of a converted AWD? Is there a reason you don't use a 5spd fwd tranny?
Are the AWD trannys stronger? Do you have numbers regarding the horse power capabilities of a 5spd AWD tranny versus the 5spd FWD tranny. I am actually considering an FWD Auto tranny if it can be installed in a 914 with less effort than a FWD 5spd.

Thank you,

Jim

-------------------------------

Hi Jim,

The main reason we use the AWD boxes is availability... they usually come on
the engines we use (WRX, Liberty GT). And I don't know of any Subarus that
have been sold in Australia as FWD, certainly not in the last 15-20 years! We
also use them because they are pretty straight forward to convert to FWD and
parts are readily available. There is also a whole range of upgrade parts
available from billet first & second gears right through to full billet dog
gearsets.

I'm no expert, so I can't really give you a comparison between AWD/FWD boxes,
or power ratings etc. We've got a car over here, around 750kg, running a
version 7 WRX STi (2.0L turbo) and a standard 5 speed WRX box converted to a
transaxle. It's been on the dyno and is doing about 215kW at the rear wheels,
if that's any indication. It's a race car and gets driven hard, and the box is
holding up fine. I'm pretty sure there are WRX guys out there running bigger
power than that through these boxes too.

Again, from the bit that I do know, when they have dramas with the boxes, it's
with 1st and 2nd gears, usually resulting from heavy launches. The WRX's all
wheel drive grip doesn't help matters in this regard, whereas our theory was
that in a 2WD installation such as the Saker (and maybe 914?) you'd break
traction before you gave the box too much grief. There's quite a few Sakers
running around with anywhere from 160kW to 200+kW and I don't know of any
major problems.

I hope this answers your questions...

Kind Regards,
Brett Longhurst,
Saker Cars Australia.

www.sakercars.com.au

[jimkelly]

As for axles/cv (a/c) joints - it appears the sub axles/cv joints are attached to the car via a splined and roll pinned connection - so either the sub a/c can be used with a mod at the outter end - or the 914 a/c could be used with a mod at the tranny end.

A local 914er I recently met uses vw bus a/c on his 914 as the are stronger than 914 a/c and shorter thus allowing him and extra 2 inches or so for his adaptor mating plates from the 914 flanges to the vw bus flanges.

No question in my - very non mechanical mind - some cnc parts will be needed.

Jim

[jimkelly]

I ran the concept across my buddy and suggested I contact raxles about some custom axles.So I did. I just sent them this email.

http://www.raxles.com/

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A bunch of us Porsche 914 owners are about to start installing subaru engines ( EJ22 and EJ25 mostly) along with Subaru Trannys into our Porsche 914s. We are gonna need axles/cvs that can connect to the wheel flange of the 914 but to the tranny stub axle on the Subaru tranny. Some of us will be using 5spd and auto fwd trannys and some of us will be using awd trannys converted. I am hoping that regardless of the tranny or engine used - the axle/cv combo needed would be the same and not too costly. A friend of mine put my on to you guys - highly recommended - hope you can help! Jim Kelly