Oil cooler..........round two, AKA fun with foam! Options

[jim_hoyland]

How many layers of glass did you use ? Any special weight or type ? Keep the pics coming, this is really interesting.

[jonwatts]

QUOTE (J P Stein @ Feb 18 2006, 07:18 PM)

You've added to my general knowledge of how to do "stuff".

(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/agree.gif) very cool.

Hey Rich, I thought you sold your /6 and signed off a few months ago?

[ArtechnikA]

QUOTE (East coaster @ Feb 18 2006, 10:44 AM)

I spoke to Jim Patrick (PMS) about my goals for this car and he convinced me -12 is the way to go. I'm not discounting the concern you raise, I just would like to understand it?

the 3,6 does flow a lot of oil. perhaps i'm just too conservative. if Jim Patrick is going to personally stand behind his recommendation, go with the experience.

but - IMO - the thermostat should be close to the engine. you're routing a lot of thick, cold oil all the way to the front of the car so it can be routed right back again. since heat is radiated from the lines, it could even take longer to reach operating temperature. (enough longer to make any practical difference? maybe not. i'll be glad to admit i don't know. where does Porsche mount the thermostat in the 3,6 911's ?)

it's your car, do what you want and think best. the reality is that Porsche engines are usually pretty robust and lots of approaches that appear marginal work well enough.

[ArtechnikA]

QUOTE (jonwatts @ Feb 19 2006, 03:29 AM)

Hey Rich, I thought you sold your /6 and signed off a few months ago?

(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/hijacked.gif)
i did sell the car and it still hurts to think about it.
i unsubscribed from just about every topic i was following.
i still get new topic notifications but i actually read very, very few new threads - most of those i do look at have /6 content -- i still have the 911 and it will be getting a lot of attention this year - including a new engine and front oil cooler.

with the new job, its 3-hr (total) commute, more limited email/internet access, and increased responsibilities, i just can't be nearly as active as i was.

so if you're asking me why i don't stay away, i can arange it...

[J P Stein]

Rich:
Generally, you and I are are in agreement about most stuff.

I wouldn't mount a thremo up front unless my oil tank was up there (maybe, I'd have to think on it for a bit) and I would use a AN16 line minimum with a 3.6L.....but I've given up preaching to guys that have already made their choices. If pressed, I'll say "lemmeno how that works out".

As for the "to be or not to be" (in the 914club sense), face it
you need the fix....unlike me, I have nuthin' better to do. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif)

[drew365]

QUOTE (Dave_Darling @ Feb 17 2006, 07:32 PM)

QUOTE (GTPatrick @ Feb 17 2006, 06:23 PM) Why not somehow vent it out through the trunk lid infront of the windshield instead of into the wheel area ? The cowl area immediately in front of the windshield is a high-pressure area. Air won't flow to there very easily. The wheel wells are a low-pressure area, air will flow to there. The air coming out of the cooler is not going to be enough above ambient to make a big difference to the brakes, which see truly hellish temperatures at their "business end". When you're trying to cool something that's 950F, there's not much difference between using 80F air and (average) 90F air... Near the front of the front hood could work, and might have the side benefit of giving you a little down-force. But that kills almost all of the front trunk for storage. --DD

Dave; do you think adding a scoop over the cowl vent with the opening facing the windshield, would create enough low pressure to vent out of the trunk? My cooler currently dumps the air under the car and I want to change that without cutting up my hood if possible.

[Dave_Darling]

QUOTE (drew365 @ Feb 19 2006, 07:37 AM)

Dave; do you think adding a scoop over the cowl vent with the opening facing the windshield, would create enough low pressure to vent out of the trunk? My cooler currently dumps the air under the car and I want to change that without cutting up my hood if possible.

Only if you cut off your windshield... (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/wink.gif)

The WS is what creates the high-pressure area, so it seems unlikely that just making a deflector on the front of the opening would do much. It would be interesting to find out for certain, though! If you can find a pressure-testing rig you might be able to find out. If you do, please let us know.

--DD

[East coaster]

As far as thermostat placement, there seems to be 2 schools of thought.

One says place the thermo near the engine so as to prevent having to pump cold oil to the front and back needlessly.

Second says place the thermo near the cooler to protect the cooler from the pressures created by all that cold oil in the lines (if thermo was at rear).

I read about a bazillion threads on this and it seems there's no real answer. I definitely could not find any answer backed up with data. I've seen more installs with the thermo up front than in the rear and I've not heard any horror stories yet. I think a coin toss (heads up front, tails in rear) is as scientific an approach as I've seen so far.

JP - As far as the -12 vs -16 lines thingy. I've not made up my mind yet. I could easily change the plan at this point, I'm just looking for information on why? If -16 is necessary I would certainly go that route, but no one has backed up that claim with any info? I'm all ears and open to any suggestions.

[Eric_Shea]

Begin Parrot: Squawwwwk

Porsche 911 Performance Handbook, Second Edition, Author - Bruce Anderson, Page 189, End of Second Paragraph:

The connecting hoses for this application should be -12 or larger to prevent restricing the oil flow to and from the cooler back to the tank.

(discussing the addition of a large radiator type cooler for track applications)

Off Parrot: Squawwwwk

He knows more than me.

[Aaron Cox]

QUOTE (Eric_Shea @ Feb 19 2006, 12:02 PM)

Begin Parrot: Bawwwwwwk Porsche 911 Performance Handbook, Second Edition, Author - Bruce Anderson, Page 189, End of Second Paragraph: The connecting hoses for this application should be -12 or larger to prevent restricing the oil flow to and from the cooler back to the tank. (discussing the addition of a large radiator type cooler for track applications) Off Parrot: Bawwwwwwk He knows more than me.

its common practice to run -16 and -20 on a 3.6......

will -12 hurt? dunno, prolly not

[Eric_Shea]

He starts that paragraph with:

'With any of the larger displacement, high-power output, normally aspirated engines or turbocharged engines...'

[race914]

QUOTE (Eric_Shea @ Feb 19 2006, 11:02 AM)

Begin Parrot: Bawwwwwwk Porsche 911 Performance Handbook, Second Edition, Author - Bruce Anderson, Page 189, End of Second Paragraph: The connecting hoses for this application should be -12 or larger to prevent restricing the oil flow to and from the cooler back to the tank. (discussing the addition of a large radiator type cooler for track applications) Off Parrot: Bawwwwwwk He knows more than me.

Hey Eric,

You may have earned a new avatar!

Greg

[Eric_Shea]

Now... if I was running the 'tank' up front, that would be a different story.

[Eric_Shea]

I was looking for a birdie avatar... we need one.

[Aaron Cox]

i thought parrots squawked and chickens bawked?

[Trekkor]

I believe the common misunderstanding is that the line coming from the front cooler is going right back into the motor like on a FOUR. Under pressure.

Well it doesn't. It fills the oil tank. This is not a starvation or oil pressure drop issue.

The -16 oil line from the oil tank to the motor is what is needed.

Remember, the oil level is checked with the motor warm and running. That's oil in the lines, motor and 8-12+ qts, depending on what tank you are using.


KT

[Eric_Shea]

QUOTE

i thought parrots squawked and chickens bawked?

Thanks for that... changed (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/huh.gif) And what's this 'common practice' crap. Stop stroking your roll and go work on your car. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif)

Trek brings it back on topic! (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/smilie_pokal.gif)

[db9146]

East Coaster, I like it...a lot. Great job. Keep the pics coming.

Thanks for sharing.

[J P Stein]

Anderson says quite a lot.
He says the 964/993 oil pump moves 67 liters per minute
on the pressure side & 1.8 times that much on the scavenge side. I can't remember the exact specifics on the 76-88 pump
but I think it was in the mid 50s per minute on the pressure side.

He also talks about restrictions in the Aux cooler side causing
the oil pump fail. Too small lines & restrictive oil coolers, yada.
The scavenge side is unregulated...pressure wise. Restrictions
or cold oil cause the pump to work harder.....it is almost a positive displacement pump, me thinks. As restrictions rise, it just keeps pumping
its 67 liters by raising the pressure. When that gets beyond its capabilities, it cavatates. The voids caused by the cavatation can allow the gears
to become exposed to each other...not to mention the drive shaft shocks. Bad shit.

If you have an aux thermostat with a pressure relief valve, the oil can by pass the cooler & be pushed thru the filter (with it's own pressure relief valve) into the tank.....no harm , no foul.

If you don't have either of these safety features (cheep filter & thermo)in your scavenge loop, that's your problem, not mine.

I'm done with this subject....move along, nothing to see here folks.

[East coaster]

Ok..........more fumes, more itchy scratchy, but a little more progress!

Here's the front inlet plenum after lay up and evacuation of the plug foam: I shaped it to fill the void between the front of the cooler and three intake holes. The three oval extensions actually fit into the holes on the front of the car.