 PMS bar mount failure, the picture |
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| Trekkor |
 Apr 25 2006, 11:49 AM
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#121
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I do things...  Group: Members Posts: 7,809 Joined: 2-December 03 From: Napa, Ca Member No.: 1,413 Region Association: Northern California  |
I am thinking about it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/idea.gif)
Very seriously... KT ( Grant likes to tweak people. He's harmless ) |
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| URY914 |
Apr 25 2006, 11:58 AM
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#122
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I built the lightest 914 in the history of mankind. Group: Members Posts: 121,464 Joined: 3-February 03 From: Jacksonville, FL Member No.: 222 Region Association: None |
The problem with those welds is -no penetration!
I have the same problem, but that's a different story. |
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| grantsfo |
Apr 25 2006, 05:04 PM
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#123
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Arrrrhhhh! Group: Members Posts: 4,327 Joined: 16-March 03 Member No.: 433 Region Association: None |
Just spent time this afternoon talking with Rich Johnson. He is a great guy! Very knowledgable and sounds like he has gone through some development to get his mount to its current design state.
I just placed my order! I highly reccomend anyone planning to go this route to speak with Rich. Now I have to build up the courage to drop the engine and take this one on myself! |
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| DanT |
Apr 25 2006, 05:54 PM
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#124
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Going back to the Dark Side! Group: Members Posts: 4,300 Joined: 4-October 04 From: Auburn, CA Member No.: 2,880 Region Association: None |
QUOTE(fiid @ Apr 25 2006, 10:26 AM)  QUOTE(Dan (Almaden Valley) @ Apr 24 2006, 02:54 PM) And how was it again, that the factory 6 engine mount was attached???? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/dry.gif) What was that, did someone say bulkhead? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I think Trekkor has heard that by now; have you read the rest of the threads? Talk about (IMG:style_emoticons/default/dead horse.gif) I didn't realise (didn't spend much time thinking about it (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) ) that the quick-6 bars had to come so far forward to mount to the motor. We have the same problems with the subaru mountings because the subaru engine mounts are at the back of the motor - causing the same problem in the other direction. It's impossible to even make it work without additional support on the subie motor because the distance is even further away from the stock bar location than it is with a quick six, and the subie motor only has two mount bolts - so there's no resistance to the flex. I tried this setup and the motor could bounce about 4-5 inches. Because I have removed a good portion of my trunk floor I was able to catch this by standing on the tranny and bouncing up and down to check the strengh of the mount - which is not possible with a regular 6 or 4 setup. yes I read the entire thread, I believe that post was fairly early on in the progress of this thread.....and I will continue to urge Trekkor and anyone else doing a conversion of any type to use a more tried and true method for attaching the motor to the chassis....if this happens to be a dead horse then I am sorry. As I said about some other modifications that folks are doing to their 914s if it was good enough for the factory..... Bulkhead mount the only way to go Now go back to Subie land.... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/dry.gif) |
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| Allan |
Apr 25 2006, 06:00 PM
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#125
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Teenerless Weenie Group: Members Posts: 8,373 Joined: 5-July 04 From: Western Mesopotamia Member No.: 2,304 Region Association: Southern California |
Really sorry to hear about the failure Trek. I was under my car tonight and noticed that even though I have the firewall mount, it's only welded in a few places.
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| IronHillRestorations |
Apr 25 2006, 07:15 PM
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#126
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I. I. R. C. Group: Members Posts: 6,735 Joined: 18-March 03 From: West TN Member No.: 439 Region Association: None 
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I don't have to whip the dead horse. I told the Trekmeister a long time ago to go with a bulkhead mount, gave him a good price too. "but I got a good deal on a Patrick quick bar", um care to guess why it seemed like a good deal???? Sorry Trekkor, live and learn eh????
I hate to admit that I installed one of those things (before I knew better), but as of yet, it's doing OK with a 3.0. Time will tell. |
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| Joe Bob |
Apr 25 2006, 07:36 PM
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#127
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Retired admin, banned a few times Group: Members Posts: 17,427 Joined: 24-December 02 From: Boulder CO Member No.: 5 Region Association: None |
QUOTE(Engman @ Apr 24 2006, 10:09 PM) Jeeeezzzzz Mikey - took ya long enough! M I can't post from work anymore and I was waiting for Iverson to chime in which he finally did. His experience coupled with my phone experience is what put me over the top on the "I WON'T BUY SPIT FROM PATRICK MOTORSPORT" fan club..... Not to mention the suckass design..... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blink.gif) |
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| Trekkor |
Apr 25 2006, 07:42 PM
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#128
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I do things... Group: Members Posts: 7,809 Joined: 2-December 03 From: Napa, Ca Member No.: 1,413 Region Association: Northern California |
When I talked to Jim Patrick he said they can and do handle up to 3.6's.
It seems the chromoly tubing may be the root cause of the problem. Regular tube steel and thicker gusseting with thick quality welds seem like the issue would be settled for all time. KT |
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| Cap'n Krusty |
Apr 25 2006, 07:55 PM
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#129
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Cap'n Krusty Group: Members Posts: 10,794 Joined: 24-June 04 From: Santa Maria, CA Member No.: 2,246 Region Association: Central California |
QUOTE(trekkor @ Apr 25 2006, 06:42 PM) When I talked to Jim Patrick he said they can and do handle up to 3.6's. It seems the chromoly tubing may be the root cause of the problem. Regular tube steel and thicker gusseting with thick quality welds seem like the issue would be settled for all time. KT IMO, the REAL problem is they were built, not designed. Proper material/stress analysis BEFORE the fabrication would have given them a better product. |
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| TimT |
Apr 25 2006, 07:59 PM
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#130
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retired Group: Members Posts: 4,033 Joined: 18-February 03 From: Wantagh, NY Member No.: 313 |
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/hijacked.gif)
FWIW, on our 935 we have broke the rear motor mount in the "cradle" more than once. Its now part of a pre track inspection, to check the motor mounts for cracks. but thats a horse of a different color, just added that to extend this thread even more (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif) |
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| Randal |
Apr 25 2006, 08:27 PM
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#131
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Advanced Member Group: Members Posts: 4,446 Joined: 29-May 03 From: Los Altos, CA Member No.: 750 |
QUOTE(Dan (Almaden Valley) @ Apr 25 2006, 04:54 PM) QUOTE(fiid @ Apr 25 2006, 10:26 AM) QUOTE(Dan (Almaden Valley) @ Apr 24 2006, 02:54 PM) And how was it again, that the factory 6 engine mount was attached???? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/dry.gif) What was that, did someone say bulkhead? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I think Trekkor has heard that by now; have you read the rest of the threads? Talk about (IMG:style_emoticons/default/dead horse.gif) I didn't realise (didn't spend much time thinking about it (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) ) that the quick-6 bars had to come so far forward to mount to the motor. We have the same problems with the subaru mountings because the subaru engine mounts are at the back of the motor - causing the same problem in the other direction. It's impossible to even make it work without additional support on the subie motor because the distance is even further away from the stock bar location than it is with a quick six, and the subie motor only has two mount bolts - so there's no resistance to the flex. I tried this setup and the motor could bounce about 4-5 inches. Because I have removed a good portion of my trunk floor I was able to catch this by standing on the tranny and bouncing up and down to check the strengh of the mount - which is not possible with a regular 6 or 4 setup. yes I read the entire thread, I believe that post was fairly early on in the progress of this thread.....and I will continue to urge Trekkor and anyone else doing a conversion of any type to use a more tried and true method for attaching the motor to the chassis....if this happens to be a dead horse then I am sorry. As I said about some other modifications that folks are doing to their 914s if it was good enough for the factory..... Bulkhead mount the only way to go Now go back to Subie land.... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/dry.gif) Mr. Safety says bulkhead mount “good place to spend money.” Keep you looking good until old age. |
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| DanT |
Apr 25 2006, 08:42 PM
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#132
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Going back to the Dark Side! Group: Members Posts: 4,300 Joined: 4-October 04 From: Auburn, CA Member No.: 2,880 Region Association: None |
At the major chance of (IMG:style_emoticons/default/dead horse.gif)
Thank you Mr. Safety. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) |
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| Trekkor |
Apr 25 2006, 09:08 PM
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#133
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I do things... Group: Members Posts: 7,809 Joined: 2-December 03 From: Napa, Ca Member No.: 1,413 Region Association: Northern California |
Mr. Safety is my friend. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/clap56.gif)
Although, after I over engineer the failed bar, we may have a differance of opinions :cool: If my welder gives me the thumbs down...Well then. That's that. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/unsure.gif) We'll do pics of the welding and all that for a certainty. Whatever comes of this, I'll send PMS my results for his own development decisions. Do I send him the link to this thread as well? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/idea.gif) KT |
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| Trekkor |
Apr 25 2006, 09:10 PM
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#134
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I do things... Group: Members Posts: 7,809 Joined: 2-December 03 From: Napa, Ca Member No.: 1,413 Region Association: Northern California |
That poor horse has really taken a beating this go around hasn't he?
Poor dead little guy... KT |
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| bryanc |
Apr 25 2006, 09:14 PM
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#135
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Member Group: Members Posts: 321 Joined: 9-August 04 From: San Antonio, Tx Member No.: 2,495 Region Association: Southwest Region |
QUOTE(trekkor @ Apr 25 2006, 08:08 PM) Mr. Safety is my friend. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/clap56.gif) Although, after I over engineer the failed bar, we may have a differance of opinions :cool: If my welder gives me the thumbs down...Well then. That's that. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/unsure.gif) We'll do pics of the welding and all that for a certainty. Whatever comes of this, I'll send PMS my results for his own development decisions. Do I send him the link to this thread as well? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/idea.gif) KT Send him the link. He needs to understand how his products are percieved. In your case, it's seems that the bar failed because of faulty (non-existant) welds. siverson's bar was because of engineering issues IMHO. I guess the real question is this: If PMS improved the bar between siverson's version and yours, do you trust that it is engineered correctly now and only needs to be (re)manufactured correctly? I don't know that I buy the Chromoly vs Mild Steel thing, but I'm not a metalurgist. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smash.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smash.gif) |
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| DanT |
Apr 25 2006, 09:17 PM
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#136
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Going back to the Dark Side! Group: Members Posts: 4,300 Joined: 4-October 04 From: Auburn, CA Member No.: 2,880 Region Association: None |
Trekkor, hope your welder buddy has some good news for you.
I see the problem with the PMS bulkhead mount is that it has the same basic design for the connection to the motor. Although there should be less torsional stress on the bar due to it being mounted infront of the motor instead of behind the front of the motor. Still, what failed on Trekkors was the mount bracket to the motor, and that portion is the same. No easy answers here as far as PMS is concerned. |
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| Trekkor |
Apr 25 2006, 09:31 PM
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#137
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I do things... Group: Members Posts: 7,809 Joined: 2-December 03 From: Napa, Ca Member No.: 1,413 Region Association: Northern California |
QUOTE Trekkor, hope your welder buddy has some good news for you. I hope so too. I just want more of this ASAP. KT Attached image(s) 
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| brant |
Apr 25 2006, 09:41 PM
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#138
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914 Wizard Group: Members Posts: 11,647 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Colorado Member No.: 47 Region Association: Rocky Mountains 
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QUOTE(Dan (Almaden Valley) @ Apr 25 2006, 08:17 PM) Trekkor, hope your welder buddy has some good news for you. I see the problem with the PMS bulkhead mount is that it has the same basic design for the connection to the motor. Although there should be less torsional stress on the bar due to it being mounted infront of the motor instead of behind the front of the motor. Still, what failed on Trekkors was the mount bracket to the motor, and that portion is the same. No easy answers here as far as PMS is concerned. but I would add that there are stories indicating Many.. perhaps dozens of bar failures and ZERO bulkhead mount failures. I know many 300hp+ full race cars capable of 160+ mph where there are no failures with the PMS bulkhead. I hate to lengthen this thread any further, but I've got to say that the PMS is often the recommended and preferred mount for a racing application. heck ask brad.. or better yet, read what he had to say last week about thisHere |
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| jhadler |
Apr 25 2006, 09:42 PM
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#139
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Long term tinkerer... Group: Members Posts: 1,879 Joined: 7-April 03 From: Lyons, CO Member No.: 529 |
Just keep in mind that you want to do this as long as you can, and if the motor rips out of the car catastrophically, you'll be down a lot longer, and the repair will cost way more than a new motor mount...
Eye on the prize... -Josh2 |
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| fiid |
Apr 25 2006, 10:05 PM
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#140
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Turbo Megasquirted Subaru Member Group: Members Posts: 2,827 Joined: 7-April 03 From: San Francisco, CA Member No.: 530 Region Association: Northern California |
QUOTE(Dan (Almaden Valley) @ Apr 25 2006, 04:54 PM) QUOTE(fiid @ Apr 25 2006, 10:26 AM) QUOTE(Dan (Almaden Valley) @ Apr 24 2006, 02:54 PM) And how was it again, that the factory 6 engine mount was attached???? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/dry.gif) What was that, did someone say bulkhead? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I think Trekkor has heard that by now; have you read the rest of the threads? Talk about (IMG:style_emoticons/default/dead horse.gif) I didn't realise (didn't spend much time thinking about it (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) ) that the quick-6 bars had to come so far forward to mount to the motor. We have the same problems with the subaru mountings because the subaru engine mounts are at the back of the motor - causing the same problem in the other direction. It's impossible to even make it work without additional support on the subie motor because the distance is even further away from the stock bar location than it is with a quick six, and the subie motor only has two mount bolts - so there's no resistance to the flex. I tried this setup and the motor could bounce about 4-5 inches. Because I have removed a good portion of my trunk floor I was able to catch this by standing on the tranny and bouncing up and down to check the strengh of the mount - which is not possible with a regular 6 or 4 setup. yes I read the entire thread, I believe that post was fairly early on in the progress of this thread.....and I will continue to urge Trekkor and anyone else doing a conversion of any type to use a more tried and true method for attaching the motor to the chassis....if this happens to be a dead horse then I am sorry. As I said about some other modifications that folks are doing to their 914s if it was good enough for the factory..... Bulkhead mount the only way to go Now go back to Subie land.... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/dry.gif) Wow. I'm actually agreeing with you and you still treat me in a totally condescending manner. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/WTF.gif) |
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