 PMS bar mount failure, the picture |
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| Trekkor |
 Apr 24 2006, 06:53 PM
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#61
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I do things...  Group: Members Posts: 7,809 Joined: 2-December 03 From: Napa, Ca Member No.: 1,413 Region Association: Northern California  |
I guess I need a break from wrenching. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smash.gif)
If he sends me a new bar mount, I might be able to reinstall it without all the motor/trans drop and all that. the firewall mount in any brand is going to require a ton of work. maybe I should pace myself, skip the a/x in two weeks, set my sights on May 26th at Thill instead. it's a bummer, that much i know. KT |
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| racergreg |
Apr 24 2006, 07:18 PM
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#62
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Member Group: Members Posts: 91 Joined: 4-April 05 From: Fullerton, CA Member No.: 3,869 |
Just a word from a satisfied customer...
I have purchased almost all of my -6 conversion parts from Patrick Motorsports. They have all been very high quality and are performing well. Jim P. has been very responsive and attentive to my questions and orders. I'll put in yet another plug for the firewall mount, though. It's simple and beefy, and I think a much better solution for a track car. |
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| DanT |
Apr 24 2006, 07:29 PM
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#63
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Going back to the Dark Side! Group: Members Posts: 4,300 Joined: 4-October 04 From: Auburn, CA Member No.: 2,880 Region Association: None |
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/gayfight.gif)
Easy boys..... Bill, maybe you aren't the one who should be trying to lift his spirits, what with your recent Burb break in and the ongoing saga of the "beast" Hang in there Trek. A good solution will come your way. PMS may even sell you a bulkhead mount cheap....Or better yet, get the stock mount from Grant. I ran my 2.7RS-6 using the stock 6 mount for 5 years of track and AX duty with no issues what so ever. |
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| Trekkor |
Apr 24 2006, 07:57 PM
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#64
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I do things... Group: Members Posts: 7,809 Joined: 2-December 03 From: Napa, Ca Member No.: 1,413 Region Association: Northern California |
OK, thanks for the laughs.
I was out side wrenching for a hour or so. ( it's OK ) Got the car off the trailer and up on stands and the engine supported back to the normal position. Let's talk... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/chatsmiley.gif) First, this design is good, and I have always like it due to it's simplicity and multiple bolt points, SIX. The motor CAN NOT fall out...even with this catostrophic failure. Here's why: There is a cradle that the plate to motor bolts catch on. It only dropped 3/4". The bolts would both have to shear off for it to fall! That doesn't happen. Have a look! KT Attached image(s) 
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| Aaron Cox |
Apr 24 2006, 08:04 PM
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#65
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Professional Lawn Dart Group: Retired Admin Posts: 24,541 Joined: 1-February 03 From: OC Member No.: 219 Region Association: Southern California |
i just dont see why you bother with a BAR mount.
it seems like the half ass way to go - yes, a wall mount will take longer to get in - and the PMS will allow it to swivel down for repairs (good idea!) so why bother futzing with another bar but it wont break....... DO IT ONCE>DO IT RIGHT (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) my .02 |
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| Trekkor |
Apr 24 2006, 08:06 PM
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#66
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I do things... Group: Members Posts: 7,809 Joined: 2-December 03 From: Napa, Ca Member No.: 1,413 Region Association: Northern California |
Now on the the root cause of the failure.
POOR WELDING (IMG:style_emoticons/default/mad.gif) I'm sorry, but this welding is not acceptable on any level. My battery tray has more integrity. The pictures don't do this low level of workmanship justice. I promise to anyone you require. If I would have struck this part with a 5#hammer ONE time it would have broke. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smash.gif) Take a look ( If you can ) KT Attached image(s) 
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| DanT |
Apr 24 2006, 08:07 PM
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#67
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Going back to the Dark Side! Group: Members Posts: 4,300 Joined: 4-October 04 From: Auburn, CA Member No.: 2,880 Region Association: None |
I can see your point there Trekkor. From your pic it appears that those bolts would need to shear or bend to allow the engine to completely fall....
With that being said....the way that piece separated is really scary and a bit depressing. If the piece was truely welded inside and out along its complete perimeter, then how in the hell did the thing completely separate. You would expect to see some of the metal torn or bent in some way. Instead you see nothing but two basically clean pieces of metal. Very strange....It was almost as if the two pieces were never really completely joined by a good penetrating weld. I agree with an earlier post that this portion should have been made from one piece of metal and then it would be resting on the bar if the weld came loose...no way for the motor to move down....only slight side to side movement. |
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| DanT |
Apr 24 2006, 08:10 PM
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#68
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Going back to the Dark Side! Group: Members Posts: 4,300 Joined: 4-October 04 From: Auburn, CA Member No.: 2,880 Region Association: None |
QUOTE(trekkor @ Apr 24 2006, 07:06 PM)  Now on the the root cause of the failure. POOR WELDING (IMG:style_emoticons/default/mad.gif) I'm sorry, but this welding is not acceptable on any level. My battery tray has more integrity. The pictures don't do this low level of workmanship justice. I promise to anyone you require. If I would have struck this part with a 5#hammer ONE time it would have broke.smash: Take a look ( If you can ) KT That looks even worse than it did on the car. I could have done a better weld than that and I haven't welded in years. PMS has some serious QC issues with whomever they have subbed this work out to. That could have led to a CATASTROPHIC failure.... PMS should be sending you anything you want to replace this item...period. Even though you bought the bar from Bill. It was sold to Bill as the second generation bar to eliminate this type of failure. Guess that engineer missed some classes... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif) |
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| bryanc |
Apr 24 2006, 08:11 PM
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#69
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Member Group: Members Posts: 321 Joined: 9-August 04 From: San Antonio, Tx Member No.: 2,495 Region Association: Southwest Region |
QUOTE(trekkor @ Apr 24 2006, 07:06 PM) Now on the the root cause of the failure. POOR WELDING (IMG:style_emoticons/default/mad.gif) I'm sorry, but this welding is not acceptable on any level. My battery tray has more integrity. It's hard to see, but with that amount of area to weld on, that part should never come apart with any reasonable amount of penetration. These are chromoly right? Were they treated correctly after the welding? |
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| Trekkor |
Apr 24 2006, 08:26 PM
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#70
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I do things... Group: Members Posts: 7,809 Joined: 2-December 03 From: Napa, Ca Member No.: 1,413 Region Association: Northern California |
It gets better ( I mean worse )
Please be seated (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ohmy.gif) Look at all three sides of the mount plate itself. "Where's the Bead?!?" KT Attached image(s)   
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| DanT |
Apr 24 2006, 08:32 PM
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#71
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Going back to the Dark Side! Group: Members Posts: 4,300 Joined: 4-October 04 From: Auburn, CA Member No.: 2,880 Region Association: None |
Looks like a few tac welds to me... definitely not fully perimeter welded inside and out (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/mad.gif)
PMS should be (IMG:style_emoticons/default/stromberg.gif) ing there collective pants right now. |
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| DanT |
Apr 24 2006, 08:34 PM
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#72
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Going back to the Dark Side! Group: Members Posts: 4,300 Joined: 4-October 04 From: Auburn, CA Member No.: 2,880 Region Association: None |
NO penetration there...
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| Trekkor |
Apr 24 2006, 08:44 PM
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#73
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I do things... Group: Members Posts: 7,809 Joined: 2-December 03 From: Napa, Ca Member No.: 1,413 Region Association: Northern California |
I talked to my welding buddy a few minutes ago.
Say what you want, this IS the voice of experience, all his 32 years of it. He said it can be stick welded back together with 7018 welding rod and no heat treating is required. He spit out some multi thousand PSI of tensile strengh. He will likely put it back together in my driveway on wednesday. I'll have him go over ALL the welds and check it carefully. I trust this man with my life- period. KT |
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| DanT |
Apr 24 2006, 08:50 PM
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#74
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Going back to the Dark Side! Group: Members Posts: 4,300 Joined: 4-October 04 From: Auburn, CA Member No.: 2,880 Region Association: None |
I have no doubt that a journeyman welder can put this back together much better than it was before....like it should have been in the first place (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
My grandfather was a journeyman welder (he taught me when I was 12) and he could stick any two pieces of metal togther just about.... You are lucky to have a good friend with that kind of skill. Make sure to take some pics during the welding and after it is completed. Will make a good primer for PMS. |
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| grantsfo |
Apr 24 2006, 08:56 PM
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#75
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Arrrrhhhh! Group: Members Posts: 4,327 Joined: 16-March 03 Member No.: 433 Region Association: None |
Here is mine.
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| bd1308 |
Apr 24 2006, 09:01 PM
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#76
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Sir Post-a-lot Group: Members Posts: 8,020 Joined: 24-January 05 From: Louisville,KY Member No.: 3,501 |
shoo thank goodness I have a FOUR.
b |
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| Trekkor |
Apr 24 2006, 09:01 PM
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#77
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I do things... Group: Members Posts: 7,809 Joined: 2-December 03 From: Napa, Ca Member No.: 1,413 Region Association: Northern California |
That looks so much better.
Mine looks like they forgot to weld it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/headbang.gif) KT |
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| MEMtheMercifull |
Apr 24 2006, 09:04 PM
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#78
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Mark E. Mayes Group: Members Posts: 24 Joined: 6-April 06 From: San Diego California Member No.: 5,830 |
I think i could get better penitration with a twelve volt battery and some coat hanger ! Can anybody say quality control ? Or perhaps faulty design ? Or not !
OOOpppss That's just an opinion folks , and they vary ! don't cha know !! |
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| DanT |
Apr 24 2006, 09:04 PM
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#79
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Going back to the Dark Side! Group: Members Posts: 4,300 Joined: 4-October 04 From: Auburn, CA Member No.: 2,880 Region Association: None |
QUOTE(bd1308 @ Apr 24 2006, 08:01 PM) shoo thank goodness I have a FOUR. b That is exactly what I have been thinking.... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif) |
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| MEMtheMercifull |
Apr 24 2006, 09:06 PM
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#80
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Mark E. Mayes Group: Members Posts: 24 Joined: 6-April 06 From: San Diego California Member No.: 5,830 |
QUOTE(LvSteveH @ Apr 24 2006, 01:38 PM) My laptop screen isn't the best, but it looks like it was welded on the inside. A nice filet weld around there should be super strong, someone just had no idea what they were doing. That's one of the dangerous things about Mig, it can look ok, and have no strength to it. When you are welding, it's plain as day when you get good penetration if you know what to look for. I don't think it needs to be beefed up so much as done properly. on edit: I'd like to see them use a little thicker plate too, if we're being picky. I beg to differ if you know what your doing mig welding is just fine ( Key action words being " Know what your doing " |
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