MYTHBUSTERS: Did Gugelot really design the 914? Options

[1970 Neun vierzehn]

Wilco,
Does the "Klie 914" have the early dash-mount wiper switch(another telltale of an early /4), or had it been updated with the later column-mounted stalk? Do you know what is happening with this car? Restoration? Refurbishment? Parts car(hope not)?
Thanks for all your contributions and input, this is interesting and fascinating history! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/clap56.gif)

Danke!

[DEC]

The "Klie 914" has the later column-mounted stalk.
This 914 is a really unique car, many parts and configurations are
made by the Porsche development.
The owner of this car is a real 914-fan and he is restoring the car (IMG:style_emoticons/default/welder.gif)
to bring it back on the street.

Wilco

[So.Cal.914]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/smoke.gif) Thanks for the pictures and the information. Keep it coming.

Take it easy.

My spanish is better.

[The Swede]

Let me help you develop this matter, although it may be periferic:

Re: Some Background:
In the early 60s, Gugelot together with the Bayer-Werke designed a plastic car that was based on a BMW.
Like the 914, this car separated itself from others through it's clear-cut lines. The car pictured in
Ludvigsens "Bible" and wrongly labeled the "Gugelot-Auto" was in fact a one-off prototype that never
made production.

Gugelot did design an interesting Swedish sports car called OBC Mantorp (after a racing course in Sweden). OBC was founded by a German, Mr. Ottmar Beckmann, who turned to Gugelot to complete his own design ideas. The car was supposed to be made of a core of polyurethan draped in glassfibre and had a mid-engine BMW engine, ranging from 100 to 200 hp. It never reached production since the project ran out of money but a completely new factory was built in Swedish town Klippan (on the west coast) in 1973-74. The car itself was constructed in a shed just by the Swedish racing course Falkenberg. I'll try to submit pictures of the only prototype (from the brochure that was made) as soon as possible. It doesn't look like a 914 at all, but has much in common with the BMW M1. And – there are gullwing doors!
Best regards from The Swede.

[SGB]

Thanks for sharing! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[highways]

I'd like to nominate this thread for classic status, as it seems to have dissappeared since the shuffle.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

[Derek Seymour]

This is one of the best threads I have ever read on any forum... period. It felt like a treasure hunt.. or something like it... fun exciting stuff!

[EdwardBlume]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif)

This IS super cool. I know its been awhile, but thanks Andy and Wilco for the treasure!

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/beer.gif)

[lotus_65]

"ACHTUNG!

Das machine ist nicht fur gerfingerpoken und der mittengraben!
Ist easy schnappin der shpringerwerk!
Ist nicht fur gerwerken by das dummkopfen.
Das rubbernecken sightseeren geekendope shotz keepen das hands in das pocketz.
Relaxen und watchin das blinkinlights."

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)
that was frickin' funny

there is NO way i'll ever see the Gugelot design has anything in common with the 914.
i'll just point to the front. you can't look at that beak and think 914. it's pure french-ugly.

the 'fleur

p.s. i had no idea this thread was so old...

[Tom_T]

I'd like to nominate this thread for classic status, as it seems to have dissappeared since the shuffle.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

Surprised you didn't nominate it for the "Comfy Chair" award! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Great read from all! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

Personally, with Porsche offering their own design services for many outside firms since its inception post-WWII - including many VW designs, some of which made it to production - why would one doubt that they could indeed design the 914, even if a departure from the 356-911/912 lines. You can look at the 924 to 968 & 928 chain as another set of departures. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/idea.gif)

Frankly, I think the Froggies are spreading that Gugelot rumor! ...you know - "I fart in your general direction!" & how the French & Germans have always (IMG:style_emoticons/default/poke.gif) each other! ...and this comes from a (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wacko.gif) part German, French, English, Irish & Cherokee/Seneca Indian mix-mash M.Python fan!! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

The clay models show a clear line of development on the final version.

It would also be "very interesting" to see some pix of the other 4 schemes in competition with Mr. K's scheme - (IMG:style_emoticons/default/type.gif) if anyone runs across something to post here. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/shades.gif)

Cheers! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/popcorn[1].gif)

[johannes]

Frankly, I think the Froggies are spreading that Gugelot rumor

Nothing to do with the french. The source of the Gugelot story is the Karl Ludvigsen's book "excellence was expected". Karl is not french.

[Tom_T]

Frankly, I think the Froggies are spreading that Gugelot rumor

Nothing to do with the french. The source of the Gugelot story is the Karl Ludvigsen's book "excellence was expected". Karl is not french.

Just "pulling your legs" collectively, Johannes - no harm intended! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

BTW - Do you know if Gugelot was French - as I had thought - or Belgian or ?? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif)

I think Ludvigsen himself was a Swede or a Dane or somewhere other than Germany himself, so it's really an international circle of rumor & innuendo.

Long's book below, in particular, does a good job of a quick debunking of the "Gugelot Theory". Personally - and as a design professional myself - I see no more than a passing similarity in some features of Gugelot's & others' designs, with the 914's styling - which often happens in what is often referred to as parallel development or innovation (2 disconnected groups/persons developing something similar but separately).

Heck, if one could claim being the genesis or authorship of a design simply by having done something similar previously, then I could claim so on the Mazda Miata & BMW Z3/Z4 on the basis of a scketch which I did for my college applications' portfolio way back in 1969/70! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/idea.gif)

For all interested - in addition to Brett Johnson's 914 tome, I recently got 2 really interesting & useful 914 resource books, that talk about some of this history of the design (Long) & worth the pix alone, & a compendium of past articles (Clarke), which are available online from the usual suspects Barnes & Noble, Borders, Amazon, PP, Pelican, etc. as listed below:

"Porsche 914 & 914-6", 2nd Ed., Brian Long, Veloce Publishing, Dorchester, UK, ISBN 1845840303

"Porsche 914 - Ultimate Portfolio", compiled by R.M. Clarke, Brooklands Books, Surrey, UK, ISBN 1855204320

Enjoy the read! Tom (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[SirAndy]

Do you know if Gugelot was French - as I had thought - or Belgian or ??

German, with Dutch ancestry.
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hans_Gugelot

I think Ludvigsen himself was a Swede or a Dane or somewhere other than Germany himself, so it's really an international circle of rumor & innuendo.

American
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_Ludvigsen

[Tom_T]

Do you know if Gugelot was French - as I had thought - or Belgian or ??

German, with Dutch ancestry.
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hans_Gugelot

I think Ludvigsen himself was a Swede or a Dane or somewhere other than Germany himself, so it's really an international circle of rumor & innuendo.

American
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_Ludvigsen

Thanx Andy! ...interesting reads on both! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

One correction though re: Ludvigsen - he'd be a German-American, Dutch-American, Swedish-American, or whatever his immigrant ancestry is/was. Similar to how you put Gugelot as a German with Dutch ancestry.

Do you happen to know which he was, as the wiki article didn't say, but his first & last names clearly use the "Old World" spellings? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif)

"American" is mostly an amalgam of many races & cultures & only related to their current place of residence. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/flag.gif) So I was going by the spellings of his names to guess at his ancestral origins.

Whereas, the only true Americans which can be considered as separate race/cultures from the Anglo-European, African, Asian or other ancestry from elsewhere in the world, are the Native Americans. "Wrong Way" Columbus called them "Indians" (Indios in Spanish) because he thought he was in India, and that grew into the other term "American Indian".

I myself am a "Mixed-blood" Cherokee/Seneca Indian (1/4 Blood), with English, Irish, Scots, French & German ancestry. So I had some ancestors here already, as the others were coming over in their boats! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Perhaps a small point, but important to the all too often marginalized First Peoples of this land! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[johannes]

Found theese interresting pictures from the BMW project

http://www.hansgugelot.com/en/bmw-bayer_sports-car.php

Link updated on 02/04/2014

[johannes]

(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/uploads_offsite/web.archive.org-5409-1396454006.1.jpg)

Relinked to Internet Archive on 02/04/2014

[Tom_T]

Found theese interresting pictures from the BMW project

http://www.gugelot.de/gugelot/bmw-bayer_sportwagen.php

Interesting design when you see these. Reminds me of the 1960's Saab & Arbath sports cars of the day, especially the rear greenhouse glass enclosure layout.

His urethane foam core with 2 gel coat skins are interesting too. My Dad was a chemist who used a similar construction for factory built housing in the late 1960's HUD "Operation Breakthrough" program. The only one from that program which was seen much internationally, were the concrete modular system used for the 1970 Montreal Olympics athletes' housing.

[johannes]

Another picture of the 1967 Gugelot - Bayer car

[Tom_T]

Another picture of the 1967 Gugelot - Bayer car

This shot makes the F&R wheels look pinched too close together, but not on the pic of the Orange one above you posted with the caption: "1967...."

Johannes - are they of the same car & just a camera optics thing, or different prototypes?

[johannes]

Same car. Wide angle lens effect.