6 vs 4 Options

[914fan]

How do a 200hp 6 and a 200hp 4 drive compared to eachother. I know there are several ways to get 200hp out or either. I am interested in a daily driver 200hp 6 or 4. Does anybody have any dyno charts of these? Is the 6 more peaky? is the 4 more torquE? Type IV and Porsche 6 please.


I am not trying to start a flame war. I am just looking for information cause I found an empty spot in my brain, and I need to fill it before something else goes in there.

[Trekkor]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/yawn.gif)


:edit:

Wake me up next summer and I'll play.
I'll be doing the driving with a passenger who will verify "no lifting, braking, intentional bad lines or other cheating.


KT

[jim912928]

To the original question...my 1.8l 914 is quick and fun. I drove a 3.2l motronic conversion and it was FAST!!!!! That is the big difference to me. It was FAST....and SOUNDED like a race car with that great six sound. Nothing like a high revving porsche six!

Now, to add to the cost bandwagon...cost is based on each persons individual approach. For me (had time)..i found a great 2 owner (I knew the 2nd owner) 84 carrera with 74k miles on it. Bought it for 9k and parted it out. I made 1k over what I paid and kept:

1. engine
2. tranny (915)
3. axles/cv's
4. dme/harness
5. tach and speedo
6. carrera front end
7. all 4 carrera brakes
8. threw the body weltmeister front sway bar

Now..I get to sell my 71 911 front end currently on the 914 and my spaced out front/rear 914 brakes (vented all around)..which will add to my positive cash flow. Only thing yet to buy then is oil tank, lines, engine mount, exhaust and whatever I need for either using my 901 or upgrading my 915 (which I might just do when I blow up the 901). So, with my patience I'll have a very cheap conversion with some very good kick ass parts!

Point...each person does it based on what they like, and each persons costs are based on their approach. Can be expensive...can be cheap. In either case 200hp in a 914 is FUN!

[Trekkor]

Oh and give me the option to buy the motor If I, "see the light" (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)


KT

[Matt Romanowski]

To me a six cylinder engine just means it has two more rod bearings to wear, 4 more rod bolts to break and 4 more valves to drop.. More parts = more chances for mechanical failure... Its all about doing more with LESS!

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/bs.gif)

Jake, you might be saying that, but you know it's not entirely true. The six case is significantly stronger. More mains equals less load on the ones that are there and there is less crank flex.

When was the last time you heard people having major trouble with 911 heads dropping valves or seats?

[Jake Raby]

I'll say no more...

Anyone who wants to work on the planning and logistics of the challenge I came up with can find me via email.

FYI- I have done a six conversion in the mid 90s... Thats when i realized how heavy those bastards really are.

[J P Stein]

Since this a shamless self promotion by Jake (not that there's anything wrong with that (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) ), Id do it if there were something in for me. I'd have to reinstall 4 pooper engine mounts, do a couple engine swaps and a couple chassis dyno sessions....which is a fair amount of work.

The tests that Jake asks for are doable, but not easily scheduled....twice.
I got the stuff that seems to be needed.

[DNHunt]

I hope this is happening. If it does why not make it an event at the WCC 07? that way there lots of witnesses. We can even have some wagering on the side.

We'll have stories to tell our grandkids about the day of the showdown.

I want to see this.

Dave

[TravisNeff]

From the torque curve charts for an SC or a 2316, how much different would they be on the track? The torque curves are very similar. Now the 4 would be lighter than the six - What would be proven? that a Raby 4 can keep up and stay together as a 3.0 would on the track? I would think that a 1/2 day on the track each - for sure they will stay together an perform.

[anthony]

I agree that something like this would be a great at a WCC event.

But, I don't see the merit of pitting a six against a four with the same hp/torque specs. The four that is 100 pounds lighter should always win.

Trekkor or Grant, how about you guys throw some street tires on your cars and we all do some acceleration tests after I get my 2270 installed. Randal could bring his 2316 along for another data point. We could do 5-60mph, 5-100mph, 30-70mph rolling tests. Finding a spot to hit 100mph might be kind of hard though.

[SirAndy]

so, have we decided which one is better yet? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/yawn.gif) what did i miss? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool_shades.gif)

i still would like to see someone weld two 1.7L motors together at the crank and make it a 3.4L flat /8 !!!
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/piratenanner.gif) Andy

[McMark]

I'm serious about trying to make this happen. Trekkor's setup would be great, except one thing... it's a one driver only car. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

I'm going to start looking at 'cheap sixes' and see about buying one just for the challengeto run in my black car. We can have a morning session with multiple drivers (Randal, Nathan, Trekkor, Grant, Brad, etc) and then swap the motor for an afternoon session. Anyone have a six lying around they'll 'rent' for the challenge?

This would be great fun at the WCC. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/mueba.gif)

[Jake Raby]

Doing it at an event would be great...

Let me know what I need to build power wise and I'll ship the entire assembly ready to drop in..

[Randal]

Are we talking a 2316 (?) . What does the machine work/balancing cost alone?

KT

Isnt that free? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) Like I said you wont see anyone publishing full cost of a big T4 conversion (200 HP) as its embarrassingly expensive.

Ask Randal....he should have pretty good idea at this point (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blink.gif)

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/blink.gif) is right.

If you're going to build a full off T4 race motor then it's going to be expensive. You could buy a few 3.6's for the money in mine, but that's not the point.

Given that I will be taking this motor to the track - this one had to be built right. On a scale of 1-10 my best guess as to severity of motor use is that AutoX is below 5 and the track pushing 10, just simply from the viewpoint of time/load. .

As with any race motor, I could lose this one the first time out, but it won't be because we didn't use all the right stuff, as you can see by my sponsor list and put it together carefully and correctly. We’re also having the Link distributor, Performance Engineering, do the dyno work, given their familiarity with the Link injection setup.

FYI by Jake's standards my motor is a little one at 2.4 liters. In additional to an updated Raby Kit with a billet crank and LN Engineering cylinders, the motor will be running TWM throttle bodies, Link injection, a completely new wire harness together with all appropriate data access provisioning, all new electronics (Mallory) and Chris Foley headers and stub pipes (Yea Chris). And the head work on this motor is really pretty unbelievable, i.e., the nicest I’ve seen.

This is the little motor that could!

And of course there is substantial other stuff proprietary to the engine assembler that you’ll never see.

Again, building real race motors is not for the faint of heart. And if you seek independent confirmation go ask Rich Walton what it would cost to blue print a 3.6 for racing. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/new_shocked.gif)

Next year should be fun with BPR running several different 914 / Boxster configurations. Who knows if everything works out maybe we’ll be able to answer the T4 vs. 6 question from our own stable.

Why did we build a T4? If you do the math and track results, one can come to the conclusion that a lightweight 914 with a strong 4 can be competitive.

[orange914]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/popcorn[1].gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/popcorn[1].gif) interesting (IMG:style_emoticons/default/popcorn[1].gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/popcorn[1].gif)

[nebreitling]

Randal is right on point: race motors are different. you guys want to spend some money? race 2.0 sixes. THERE is some serious money (engine programs at over $100k/season; serious money for "amateur" racing). hell, i do a top-end rebuild on my kart every 1.5 hours. with next year's engine, it will probably be more like 45 or 60 minutes for every top end... my costs are not unreasonable, but it sustains my point that race engines are.... different.


Everyone is talking from their own point of views -- the street thrashers have a different sense of power, reliability and maintainence than do the track drivers (where reliability is primary) and the AXers (weight) and the w2w racers (ragged-edge power within the confines of strict rules).... that's fine, but i think we should be clear about the metrics by which we judge these things. This is exactly why a 4 vs 6 'shoot-out' is inherently problematic.

jake is fighting an uphill battle here. hi-power T-IV's have a reputation of being grenades on the track. regardless of the facts, the research, or Jake's talents, it may take a couple generations to change that impression. I'd love to see someone abuse a 200hp 914-4 track car for 4 or 5 years with only oil changes and the ocassional valve-adjustment. I'd be a believer at that point.

[Jake Raby]

Jake is fighting an uphill battle here

I'm used to it...
I prefer it that way...

I can build sixes, but they are no fun....

[IronHillRestorations]

There is one way to settle this..

Someone offer up a car...

I build a 200HP TIV for it and then some dedicated souls can install it and the swap it out with a six of similar output..

I suggested this the last time this subject got out of hand. With a displacement limitation of 2.2 liters or less, remember? So we have 2.2 liters or less with a budget of $5k? Normally aspirated. I have at least one six cylinder combination in mind (IMG:style_emoticons/default/idea.gif)

Obviously the type four is a great engine, and Jake is making it much, much better. I would think the limiting factor is utimately the valve train, isn't it? Isn't this one of the main reasons why Porsche went to the overhead cam engines?

The thought of doing A/B comparisons with a type four and flat six in the same car would be very cool.

Transmission gearing would be a factor though. I think it would be very difficult to have optimum gearing for the two different engines.

[Bleyseng]

Thats really not the point here. Realistically no one is going to be able to make a 200 HP T4 conversion for $6000 after adding all the required conversion parts on a stock car. Then lets talk about whether a big T4 that makes 200 HP is going to last as long as a mild 200 HP six. No way no how.
[/quote]


Ok, I'll post the info again. The new breed of type4's has:

Nickasil cylinders just like a six
New freakin CNC heads
Will have ceramic roller lifters
Roller cams with new profiles
Modern EFI -SDS, Megasquirt etc...
better than stock rods
better bearings

Why won't these go 200k if its not raced? I am sure at 100k the heads should be looked at but where and what will go wrong?????

yeah, but a 2.2S six motor made about 160+hp all high revs. A 2.3L four built for 200hp can be done and a 2.4L six is hard pushed to get there unless I am missing something. You always have to add in the price of the six conversion too in the comparison.

[Jake Raby]

Game on boys!

(IMG:http://www.aircooledtechnology.com/galleries/rollers/Rollers%20037.jpg)

(IMG:http://www.aircooledtechnology.com/galleries/rollers/Rollers%20019.jpg)

I have 64 lifters in stock and 11 cams being groud as we speak.. In 2007 by mid year ALL my complete engines will be "Rollers"...

Someone mentionned the valvetrain being weak... These EXACT same components (sam Mfr of the lifters and same material for the cam blanks)make it 5-6, 500 mile NASCAR races, last weekend they were turning close to 10,000 RPM in Atlanta the whole race, most cars were not dropping below 7,500 in the corners..

[swood]

Oh man...those deserve a (IMG:style_emoticons/default/icon_bump.gif)


2316 on the brain...