 6 vs 4 |
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| grantsfo |
 Nov 3 2006, 09:40 PM
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#121
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Arrrrhhhh!  Group: Members Posts: 4,327 Joined: 16-March 03 Member No.: 433 Region Association: None  |
QUOTE(Bleyseng @ Nov 3 2006, 06:08 PM)  Ok, I'll post the info again. The new breed of type4's has: Nickasil cylinders just like a six New freakin CNC heads Will have ceramic roller lifters Roller cams with new profiles Modern EFI -SDS, Megasquirt etc... better than stock rods better bearings Why won't these go 200k if its not raced? I am sure at 100k the heads should be looked at but where and what will go wrong????? yeah, but a 2.2S six motor made about 160+hp all high revs. A 2.3L four built for 200hp can be done and a 2.4L six is hard pushed to get there unless I am missing something. You always have to add in the price of the six conversion too in the comparison. Yes youre missing something. 2.4 S engine in stock trim made 190 HP. Hard pushed to get 200 HP? A set of headers or increasing lazy compression ratio of stock 2.4 engine would easily push output over 200 HP. The 2.4 responds very well to mods as outlined below. A quote from PORSCHE Excellence was expected. " With a new long stroke camshaft Porsche could build 911 S engines for GT racing that came right up to the 2.5 liter class limit, and it was not long before they had done so. In fact one such engine survived 7500 miles of flogging in a course car in the 1971 Monte Carlo Rally. New Biral cylinders and pistons with bore of 86.7 mm brought displacement up to 2494cc. With the Bosch injection it produced 275 bhp at 7900 RPM and 195 ft/lbs of torque at 6200 RPM." Hmmm ....Stroker 2.4 six. I just might know somone who is doing that. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) |
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| Bleyseng |
Nov 3 2006, 09:40 PM
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#122
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Aircooled Baby! Group: Members Posts: 13,035 Joined: 27-December 02 From: Seattle, Washington (for now) Member No.: 24 Region Association: Pacific Northwest |
I wanna see a type4 turn 10 grand for a race. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)
Ok, if the 2.4S was so great at 200hp why is everybody going to 3.2 or 3.6's? |
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| Jake Raby |
Nov 3 2006, 09:51 PM
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#123
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Engine Surgeon Group: Members Posts: 9,396 Joined: 31-August 03 From: Lost Member No.: 1,095 Region Association: South East States |
Another friggin book reader...
Imagine that. |
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| Trekkor |
Nov 3 2006, 09:55 PM
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#124
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I do things... Group: Members Posts: 7,809 Joined: 2-December 03 From: Napa, Ca Member No.: 1,413 Region Association: Northern California |
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| quik914 |
Nov 3 2006, 09:55 PM
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#125
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Newbie Group: Members Posts: 30 Joined: 18-May 06 From: Georgia Member No.: 6,023 |
Well, I had a nice post written for this, and I hit one wrong button and it was gone. Gotta love it.
If you took the time to listen to the radio show Jake posted, you heard my testimonial. If you didn't, listen to it. What I said is the truth, and it comes from someone who has been driving these cars for over 20 years. All I can say is that I agree with the statement that you have to build what you want. Having said that, I believe if they do the challenge, and the motors are equal in power (with similar torque and HP curves) the 6 does not stand a chance. Porsche built over 100k of these cars, the most successfull Porsche of its day, and the vast majority of them were 4 bangers. Yes, there is someone with a 200HP 4 on this forum (202 at 6K to be exact). Backwoods GA???? All I can say is ignorance is bliss. Brains are not confined to the big cities of the world. Air Cooled Heaven is an impressive place, and they do great work there. There is something to be said for the clean air that you breath up there. I am going to take my 4 banger up to the mountains to see the turning leaves down here in Backwoods GA (without any reservations by the way, the motor is silky smooth, and I have no doubt it will provide a trouble free life for a long time). If you are wondering, I have just over 13K in my motor setup. I pretty much went all out and that includes the most beautiful headers money can buy (Thanks Chris) 1-3/4" Foley customs with center exhaust muffler, ceramic coated and all. I got the a turnkey 2316 from Jake with the old ceramic lifters (no longer available I believe), some cool coatings, and lots of goodies including the JE Pistons. It uses 45mm Dels with the custom Mallory from Jake (you have to get him to set it up if you buy it so it is right on the money). That includes an Accusump and a remote cooler ($1000???? I have about $200 in my set up and it is a Mocal) with the stock cooling system. My temps run between 300 and 350 CHT and oil temp is way cool under normal conditions and was totally under control after 3 hard 1:30s autocross runs in the heat of the summer in the big city in GA. Whatever you decide to do with your car, enjoy! I thought you might like this honest information from an experienced 4 banger owner. Peace! |
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| iamchappy |
Nov 3 2006, 09:59 PM
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#126
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It all happens so fast! Group: Members Posts: 4,893 Joined: 5-November 03 From: minnetonka, mn Member No.: 1,315 Region Association: Upper MidWest  |
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/dead horse.gif) Move on, I need over 400hp to get me going and there are others on board whose teeners are sporting 600. I am sorry but 200hp is not that exciting.
I hope this kills this thread. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/headbang.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ar15.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ar15.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ar15.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ar15.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ar15.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ar15.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ar15.gif) |
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| quik914 |
Nov 3 2006, 10:05 PM
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#127
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Newbie Group: Members Posts: 30 Joined: 18-May 06 From: Georgia Member No.: 6,023 |
If you hate it so much, why are you monitoring it Chappy?
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| Jake Raby |
Nov 3 2006, 10:10 PM
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#128
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Engine Surgeon Group: Members Posts: 9,396 Joined: 31-August 03 From: Lost Member No.: 1,095 Region Association: South East States |
QUOTE My temps run between 300 and 350 CHT and oil temp is way cool under normal conditions and was totally under control after 3 hard 1:30s autocross runs in the heat of the summer in the big city in GA I'd like to add that Mike has a stock 914 cooling system, not my DTM and attains those temps... They are near exacting those of a 100% stock 2.0 engine that makes 100HP less... Can anyone say efficiency???? Hell yeah, with a capital E! Mike was standing right next to me when that 2316 pulled 202 ponies on my dyno with equal torque... Mike did a great job on his install, the install is what makes or breaks the engine.... Mike, I heard that I was able to break a gearbox for you??? That a boy, those 2316s are HELL on 2nd gear- I broke mine 3 times! |
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| Trekkor |
Nov 3 2006, 10:27 PM
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#129
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I do things... Group: Members Posts: 7,809 Joined: 2-December 03 From: Napa, Ca Member No.: 1,413 Region Association: Northern California |
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| Lou W |
Nov 3 2006, 10:33 PM
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#130
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"Here Kitty Kitty" my ass...... Group: Members Posts: 4,109 Joined: 9-May 04 From: Roseburg, OR. Member No.: 2,039 Region Association: Spain |
QUOTE(quik914 @ Nov 3 2006, 09:55 PM) Well, I had a nice post written for this, and I hit one wrong button and it was gone. Gotta love it. If you took the time to listen to the radio show Jake posted, you heard my testimonial. If you didn't, listen to it. What I said is the truth, and it comes from someone who has been driving these cars for over 20 years. All I can say is that I agree with the statement that you have to build what you want. Having said that, I believe if they do the challenge, and the motors are equal in power (with similar torque and HP curves) the 6 does not stand a chance. Porsche built over 100k of these cars, the most successfull Porsche of its day, and the vast majority of them were 4 bangers. Yes, there is someone with a 200HP 4 on this forum (202 at 6K to be exact). Backwoods GA???? All I can say is ignorance is bliss. Brains are not confined to the big cities of the world. Air Cooled Heaven is an impressive place, and they do great work there. There is something to be said for the clean air that you breath up there. I am going to take my 4 banger up to the mountains to see the turning leaves down here in Backwoods GA (without any reservations by the way, the motor is silky smooth, and I have no doubt it will provide a trouble free life for a long time). If you are wondering, I have just over 13K in my motor setup. I pretty much went all out and that includes the most beautiful headers money can buy (Thanks Chris) 1-3/4" Foley customs with center exhaust muffler, ceramic coated and all. I got the a turnkey 2316 from Jake with the old ceramic lifters (no longer available I believe), some cool coatings, and lots of goodies including the JE Pistons. It uses 45mm Dels with the custom Mallory from Jake (you have to get him to set it up if you buy it so it is right on the money). That includes an Accusump and a remote cooler ($1000???? I have about $200 in my set up and it is a Mocal) with the stock cooling system. My temps run between 300 and 350 CHT and oil temp is way cool under normal conditions and was totally under control after 3 hard 1:30s autocross runs in the heat of the summer in the big city in GA. Whatever you decide to do with your car, enjoy! I thought you might like this honest information from an experienced 4 banger owner. Peace! Do you have any pictures? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) |
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| grantsfo |
Nov 3 2006, 10:42 PM
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#131
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Arrrrhhhh! Group: Members Posts: 4,327 Joined: 16-March 03 Member No.: 433 Region Association: None |
QUOTE(trekkor @ Nov 3 2006, 08:27 PM) (IMG:http://www.partytrack.com/images/Smiley%20Face%20-%20Money.gif) |
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| iamchappy |
Nov 3 2006, 10:43 PM
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#132
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It all happens so fast! Group: Members Posts: 4,893 Joined: 5-November 03 From: minnetonka, mn Member No.: 1,315 Region Association: Upper MidWest |
Who said I hated it, but this debate could go on forever, there is no right or wrong, better or best.
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| quik914 |
Nov 3 2006, 10:49 PM
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#133
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Newbie Group: Members Posts: 30 Joined: 18-May 06 From: Georgia Member No.: 6,023 |
It is not a debate. The guy asked for information, and I gave him honest information about my experience. Infomercial? You guys think what you want. What do you think 914fan asked for........INFORMATION.....
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| quik914 |
Nov 3 2006, 10:57 PM
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#134
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Newbie Group: Members Posts: 30 Joined: 18-May 06 From: Georgia Member No.: 6,023 |
Here is the car, I have a picture of the motor at work I will post on Monday.
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| grantsfo |
Nov 3 2006, 10:58 PM
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#135
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Arrrrhhhh! Group: Members Posts: 4,327 Joined: 16-March 03 Member No.: 433 Region Association: None |
QUOTE(quik914 @ Nov 3 2006, 08:49 PM) It is not a debate. The guy asked for information, and I gave him honest information about my experience. Infomercial? You guys think what you want. What do you think 914fan asked for........INFORMATION..... The local Georgia pitchman from the radio show? Clearly hints of infomercial to me. Based on price you quoted you got a deal on your motor in exchange for something. Even I would pitch Jake if I could get a turn key 200 hp motor with those headers, etc all in for $13K. Thats $5000 less than Jake quoted me for lesser setup once I figured in cost for carbs and headers. Jake you want to sell me a 206 HP turn key motor all set up with coatings, ceramics, carbs, ignition, expensive headers and muffler for $13K? Wow! |
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| TravisNeff |
Nov 3 2006, 11:23 PM
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#136
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914 Guru Group: Members Posts: 5,082 Joined: 20-March 03 From: Mesa, AZ Member No.: 447 Region Association: Southwest Region 
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Wow, this thread probably won't go anywhere. But, as we were speaking before for about 5-6 grand you can do a raby 4 at 200hp, or do a used 911 engine conversion - on a budget. You can also do a Suby or V8 in the same price range. So there is a lot of choices there that wasn't not too long ago.
Again, I am asking engines with simlar torque curves, 4 vs 6 - what's the difference? And price ranges were never asked for in the first post, but if you want to make an apples to apples comparison - you have to factor the cost of admission to play. The thing intriguing to me is the fact as the 914 is perceived as the underdog, change to a 6 and all of a sudden the perception changes. Add a hopped up 4 cyl and it adds to the underdog whupping ass on the majority perception. Jake has a tough argument here, there are thousands upon thousands of 911 engines making good power with longevity and power. With his engines, he has to wait for word of mouth on how they survive before the majority really believes in longevity. that's hard to do when most of the cars are pleasure cruisers or track weekend cars. |
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| Trekkor |
Nov 3 2006, 11:30 PM
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#137
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I do things... Group: Members Posts: 7,809 Joined: 2-December 03 From: Napa, Ca Member No.: 1,413 Region Association: Northern California |
QUOTE thousands upon thousands of 911 engines making good power with longevity and power And I believe the rarest thing would be for any of them to replace their SIX with a FOUR. Anybody here with a 911 convert to a FOUR? ( crickets ) KT |
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| Trekkor |
Nov 3 2006, 11:33 PM
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#138
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I do things... Group: Members Posts: 7,809 Joined: 2-December 03 From: Napa, Ca Member No.: 1,413 Region Association: Northern California |
I think the reason that smaller SIXES are plentiful and cheap is because 911 guys are upgrading to bigger SIXES.
Pretty straight forward, really. KT |
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| TravisNeff |
Nov 3 2006, 11:34 PM
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#139
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914 Guru Group: Members Posts: 5,082 Joined: 20-March 03 From: Mesa, AZ Member No.: 447 Region Association: Southwest Region
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Correct Trekkor. And if someone also invested in a Raby 4 would they decide then to go to a 6 cyl? I dunno. For the cost of the big ticket items (nickies, roller cams etc.) it would be hard to drop that investment and change rather than repair and move on. But with big 4's in the past they blew up quick and quite easily, those poeple pressed on or converted to a six. John Rogers is one of them. Like I said, if Jakes engines are all what he states - he has a long road ahead before the majority changes their minds.
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| Trekkor |
Nov 3 2006, 11:43 PM
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#140
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I do things... Group: Members Posts: 7,809 Joined: 2-December 03 From: Napa, Ca Member No.: 1,413 Region Association: Northern California |
And of course, for some, resale value is important.
KT |
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