6 vs 4 Options

[914fan]

OK guys. We took a hard left. Lets bring it back to center.

"How do a 200hp 6 and a 200hp 4 drive compared to each other. I know there are several ways to get 200hp out or either. I am interested in a daily driver 200hp 6 or 4. Does anybody have any dyno charts of these? Is the 6 more peaky? is the 4 more torquE? Type IV and Porsche 6 please.
I am not trying to start a flame war. I am just looking for information cause I found an empty spot in my brain, and I need to fill it before something else goes in there."


I said nothing about cost, preference, or anything. I was just looking for info. This has been a good thread for the most part. I am not looking to get a 6 or 4. I will probably only ever end up with a 1911 or if I'm lucky a 2056 4. I just wanted to know how they drive in comparison. ONE person told of his story with factory 2.0s 4vs6. That was awesome. a couple people have told like stories. Thank you. I DO NOT CARE about the cost of either power plant. I can't afford either one. I'm poor. Ask slits. hes seen my car. If your in HB you have probably seen it also. Lets sop fighting about what is best and discuss the topic.


Have you driven a six? how does it drive? does it push? where is your power?
Have you driven a powerful four? how does it drive? does it push? where is your power?

as far as "Jake the infomercial" so what? He builds a great product and is proud of it. We all brag about what we are good at. You should hear me talk about fishing on a kayak. He has made getting four parts easier. If that was all he did we would all be happy. But he does more. You either like what he does or you dont. If you like it thats great. If not thats great to.

Lets try and bring this back to center.

If you have a six how long does it take to go from 1500rpm to 6000rpm in third gear? what are the indicated speeds? Same question for a powerful 4.


I do like the idea of 1 car that has the motor switched. If it could be done with a neutral driver it would answer the question exactly. Exacting documentation would show the differences between the two.


Remember I NEVER said anything about price, preference, or a need to get one or the other. I just asked how they drive. Be descriptive, I want to be able to imagine it.

Nick

[TravisNeff]

Good points Nick. Did you see the torque curve chart for a 3.0 and a 2316 very similar along all RPM ranges. HP is a measurement of torque, so my thought is they perform very similar.

I've ridden in my 1.7 and 2.0 and a hotrod 2056 those were fun. I got to ride in trekkors car, and that was funner. Got a ride in a 3.6 teener in is downright scary TORQUE those 6cyl engines were far more fun than my stock and hotrodded small 4's.

[McMark]

I'm surprise and embarrassed by the arrogance some six converts. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ohmy.gif)

If Jerry Woods was here promoting six cylinder technology I know at least three people who would be excited to hear every secret he would spout. I'm one.

Don't bash the people who share their knowledge just because it's not interesting to you. There are quite a few people on this board who have a financial interest related to this board. I'm glad that people like Jake and Brad and TimT and so many others are willing to share their knowledge. And if they make a buck or promote themselves, I consider it a valuable trade.

[McMark]

Nick, I don't know how money doesn't enter into the equation. Without considering cost it becomes every combo of four cylinder vs every combo of six cylinder. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif)

Six conversions cost money, but if you want huge power they're the way to go (3.0, 3.2, 3.6). If you're looking for bang for your buck, a 2056 four with carbs is probably the best bet. A 2056 with 125 hp is amazing and you can build one for around $2000.

[914fan]

Travis. I did see the 2 plots. That was great. thank you.
"Input. Need more input."
More driver and driven stories


I agree with McMark. Don't bash those who share their knowlede. If we were to bash everybody who shared their knowledge. NONE of US would not be bashed.

Cost does not need to enter the equation because I dont care. I will never have a high cost engine. I would consider myself lucky to ride in one. I just want to be able to close my eyes and imagine the drive. So how do they drive. Lets even take out the hp part of this question. Do you have a high power 4, or 6? Describe in detail how it drives.

Again thank you all for the info.
Nick

[quik914]

The local Georgia pitchman from the radio show? Clearly hints of infomercial to me. Based on price you quoted you got a deal on your motor in exchange for something. Even I would pitch Jake if I could get a turn key 200 hp motor with those headers, etc all in for $13K. Thats $5000 less than Jake quoted me for lesser setup once I figured in cost for carbs and headers.

Jake you want to sell me a 206 HP turn key motor all set up with coatings, ceramics, carbs, ignition, expensive headers and muffler for $13K? Wow!


Grant,

I had the carbs, ignition and a good core. I also delivered it and picked it up, so that saved me some money too. The rest was bought and paid in full, no credit cards. I did get a good deal, do you know why? I got on the list almost 2 years ago before everyone knew about Jake. I had faith in him after I talked to him about the motor I wanted. He said he could build it and I put up my money and waited....and waited. My car is nice. It is exactly what I always wanted, and I love it. That is all that matters. I am no pitch man for Jake. He is crazy for sure, but in a good way. And being in the service business, I deal with a lot of people who will try to scam you. That is one thing Jake will not do. You get what you pay for. If I had to do it again, I would pay the going rate for what I want. You sound like you like your 6 and that is fine, but don't judge someone because he speaks his mind. Have a little class.

914fan, the questions you asked are good. My car is more nimble than a six, no doubt. It changed direction better and is much more predictable as it starts to slide. Most of what you asked is based on set up. Weight distribution on the 4 cyl. is basically 50 50. The 6 adds some weight, but it is still well balanced. It is a mid engine car, so that is inherent in the design. Most of the things you asked are due to what the driver does when. Weight is shifted with your feet, and any car can be made to push if you transfer weight to the rear at the wrong time. As far as details go, the car is easy to drive and very forgiving, pulls very hard from 3500 to 6500 and will cruise along at 3000 without a problem. It revs very fast and in 3rd it runs through the gear like a stock one runs through second. I drove a stock 2.0 for a lot of years and this one puts it to shame. Its not as fast as a strong 6 cyl. on top end. But most of my driving is done between 30 and 80, and it will run with any 6 (minus the big ones with big power) at those speeds.

Keep saving. I had mine sit for years while I was saving for the car I wanted to build. I am glad I stuck with the 4 cyl. If I wanted a 911, I certaily could have gotten one for the money I have in the car. I wanted a 914, and to me, a 914 is a 4 cyl. Good luck, I am not going to waste anymore of my time with this. Enjoy your car, and BTW, I love the boat on top.......they really do hold a lot of cargo for a little car too...... Cool.

[Mueller]

Have you driven a six? how does it drive? does it push? where is your power?

Have you driven a powerful four? how does it drive? does it push? where is your power?

Nick

The questions are really still too vague....

Gearing, tire size, whether or not the car is stockish weight or not or extensively been put on a diet all have a huge effect on how it drives and where the power is and how it feels.

What you really need is the dyno charts to get a better feeling...you could have 2 /4 motors that both put out lets say 200HP, but one could be a dog on the street if it's designed for high rpms and if the other one is more of a torque monster it might be considered more fun to drive on street..geared incorrectly and neither one could be fun to drive but be more of a chore.....

considering that driving just a bone stock 914 is fun, anything putting down more power will be a blast if the rest of the car is up to the task of letting you use the additional power.....

generally speaking, no matter whether it's a /4 or a /6, the bore/stroke/cam(s) will dictate where the power is

whether or not the car "pushes" has nothing to do with the powerplant...

[Bleyseng]

Have you driven a six? how does it drive? does it push? where is your power?

Have you driven a powerful four? how does it drive? does it push? where is your power?

Nick

The questions are really still too vague....

Gearing, tire size, whether or not the car is stockish weight or not or extensively been put on a diet all have a huge effect on how it drives and where the power is and how it feels.

What you really need is the dyno charts to get a better feeling...you could have 2 /4 motors that both put out lets say 200HP, but one could be a dog on the street if it's designed for high rpms and if the other one is more of a torque monster it might be considered more fun to drive on street..geared incorrectly and neither one could be fun to drive but be more of a chore.....

considering that driving just a bone stock 914 is fun, anything putting down more power will be a blast if the rest of the car is up to the task of letting you use the additional power.....

generally speaking, no matter whether it's a /4 or a /6, the bore/stroke/cam(s) will dictate where the power is

whether or not the car "pushes" has nothing to do with the powerplant...

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif)

I have just been trying to say that in the four world things have changed, you can get 200hp that lasts.

Can we stop the bashing (IMG:style_emoticons/default/WTF.gif) seems like its a personal thing.

For a DD, I think the 2056 is the best for your money. 110-125hp, about the same as a stock six but 100lbs lighter.

[grantsfo]

Grant,

I had the carbs, ignition and a good core. I also delivered it and picked it up, so that saved me some money too. The rest was bought and paid in full, no credit cards. I did get a good deal, do you know why? I got on the list almost 2 years ago before everyone knew about Jake. I had faith in him after I talked to him about the motor I wanted. He said he could build it and I put up my money and waited....and waited. My car is nice. It is exactly what I always wanted, and I love it. That is all that matters. I am no pitch man for Jake. He is crazy for sure, but in a good way. And being in the service business, I deal with a lot of people who will try to scam you. That is one thing Jake will not do. You get what you pay for. If I had to do it again, I would pay the going rate for what I want. You sound like you like your 6 and that is fine, but don't judge someone because he speaks his mind. Have a little class.

914fan, the questions you asked are good. My car is more nimble than a six, no doubt. It changed direction better and is much more predictable as it starts to slide. Most of what you asked is based on set up. Weight distribution on the 4 cyl. is basically 50 50. The 6 adds some weight, but it is still well balanced. It is a mid engine car, so that is inherent in the design. Most of the things you asked are due to what the driver does when. Weight is shifted with your feet, and any car can be made to push if you transfer weight to the rear at the wrong time. As far as details go, the car is easy to drive and very forgiving, pulls very hard from 3500 to 6500 and will cruise along at 3000 without a problem. It revs very fast and in 3rd it runs through the gear like a stock one runs through second. I drove a stock 2.0 for a lot of years and this one puts it to shame. Its not as fast as a strong 6 cyl. on top end. But most of my driving is done between 30 and 80, and it will run with any 6 (minus the big ones with big power) at those speeds.

Keep saving. I had mine sit for years while I was saving for the car I wanted to build. I am glad I stuck with the 4 cyl. If I wanted a 911, I certaily could have gotten one for the money I have in the car. I wanted a 914, and to me, a 914 is a 4 cyl. Good luck, I am not going to waste anymore of my time with this. Enjoy your car, and BTW, I love the boat on top.......they really do hold a lot of cargo for a little car too...... Cool.

So all in were talking something around $15 to $16K if you had to pay for fuel system and ignition. Dang thats still a little cheaper than price Jake quoted me even with my own core and building a mild 2270. Its nice for us to have an honest discussion about true costs of a Big 200 HP T4 for once.

So getting back on topic. Your engine's powerband sounds very similar to my 2.4 911 E engine. The 2.4 I had installed in my car pulls hard from 3000 to 6000 RPM. I can actually grab decent power as low as 2500 RPM. The motor has little top end above 6000 RPM. Biggest differnce is I spent a 1/3rd of that T4 cost on my turnkey six motor. Silly me, but I do think cost is a consideration for some of us. I respect both motors I just couldnt ignore the value in a used six. I also didnt have the patience to wait 2 years with Jake like you did. I wanted a motor and had it installed in under a month. No waiting just instant gratification. I have this thing about not waiting until tommrrow as I might get hit by a train.

Trying to answer the original post is almost impossible. You'd have to pick a specific big T4 build spec and a speific six build spec. My 911 E motor is tons differnt from most high reving sixes. It gives a pretty incredible punch starting at 3000 RPM that is amazing for a small displacement engine.

Jake , FAT and others have built motors with differnt specs. In general cars with big T4's I have been in have great throttle response and give intial trust just like a six. in the first couple of gears. In general it isnt until youre on the open road that a medium size six shows its advantage with top end power. For a street motor anyone would be well served by a T4 anywhere between 150 to 200 HP.

[grantsfo]

I'm surprise and embarrassed by the arrogance some six converts. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ohmy.gif)

If Jerry Woods was here promoting six cylinder technology I know at least three people who would be excited to hear every secret he would spout. I'm one.

Don't bash the people who share their knowledge just because it's not interesting to you. There are quite a few people on this board who have a financial interest related to this board. I'm glad that people like Jake and Brad and TimT and so many others are willing to share their knowledge. And if they make a buck or promote themselves, I consider it a valuable trade.

Please let me know when Jerry starts posting on the 914club board to drum up business. LOL! Hope I dont embarrass you too much with my arrogance. Its just a problem with us guys with six cylinder motors we feel like royalty when we drive real Porsches. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[IronHillRestorations]

Can we stop the bashing (IMG:style_emoticons/default/WTF.gif) seems like its a personal thing.

Brother Geoff speaks the truth! Can I get an AMEN?!! I mean we all play on the same team, right? Except for those damn water cooled V8 guys, we can all gang up on them (IMG:style_emoticons/default/happy11.gif)

Just because there are different engines that we get keyed up about doesn't mean we have to say stuff we wouldn't say face to face. I thought the original post was soliciting opinions on a four cylinder vrs a six cylinder, not all of the ad nauseum arguments that have ensued.

Since I got my first 914 in 1978, a 914-6 has always been a desireable car for me. Probably because of the rarity factor, and probably in part because it says "Porsche" on the valve covers. I just figured if it said Porsche on the car it should say Porsche on the engine.

In complete honesty, a stock 6'er (2.0 T engine) is pretty underwhelming compared to a good solid 2.0 four. Supposedly 30HP more than the 2.0 four? Doesn't feel much faster, just easier to rev over 4k rpm. Why do you think the majority of rebuilds on the stock 914-6 engine end up 2.2E spec?

15 years ago, there wasn't anyone who was spending the resources to develop the type four engine. Pretty much everything was 70's technology. That has changed significantly with all that Jake and Charles have done and continue to develop. I don't care what gives you more wood a four or a six, these improvemens are a good thing OK? More choices and better technology is good, right?

I like sixes because converting a four cylinder car to a flat six dry sump Porsche engine, is something I know how to do, and have developed a reputation for supplying the stuff to put it together. When I built my first conversion car twelve years ago, the way to go for 200 reliable hp was a six, and that's the path I've taken. We all have our own path, and the reasons that have led us that way, it doesn't make it better than one or the other.

Can't we move on to something we can really argue about, like which is better Coke or Pepsi, blondes, redheads, or brunettes??! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Jake Raby]

Its just a problem with us guys with six cylinder motors we feel like royalty when we drive real Porsches.

Yep, until you open the front trunk and find "Volkswagenwerk A.G" stamped on the ID plate... What you end up like is a snotty nosed 911 Prick with a capital "P" that still gets an allowance from daddy...

Mike didn't get a deal at all. He paid the going rate for the engine that he wanted at the time we initiated the build, I didn't jack the price up at the end, he paid exactly what I had stated in my proposal a full year before he received the engine..

Since then my labor prices have went up, a few parts have as well, but not very much because other parts prices had dropped eveningt hat out a bit.. Last year I spent about 9,000 bucks in Dyno fuel alone to test my engines and developments so just like everything else prices went up... Now they are dropping back down a bit because of the HUGE volumes of parts we are moving at the Type 4 Store..

Grant, did it ever occur to you that I could probably tell that you were a "P"rick on the phone based on your questions and statements, I can read'm like a book and don't EVER want one of "Them" to end up with an engine with my name on it..

You just might have received a "Go away" price.... It worked! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/finger.gif)

BTW_ I don't come here with the infomercial, I come here because I believe in what I create enough not to let it be dragged through the mud by those who have no experience with it. Generally these people have no first hand knowledge with the engine, but they don't let that stop them from being experts in the field of Type 4 deflation... I have worked for the past 15 years to promote this engine because I love it and believe in it, and I intend to make these jackasses that intend to spout their mouths off have to work really friggin hard... I'll always be right here, just like a stone wall ready to fend off their invasions and like I said earlier, I am pretty used to it.. I deal with these engines everyday, all day and also build a few sixes and a few 356 engines as well, most guys that jump into these debates don't even have a tool box, but they are freakin experts!!

So, where does this leave us???

It still leaves me offering to be the "Underdog" in a 4 Vs 6 comparison and hoping that we can get the logistics worked out... I work really well under pressure, must be the Marine in me..

[jim912928]

you know..this is why I don't post in here as much (lurk more now then anything). When it get's to name calling..what are we doing? This forum is about our cars, the technology, how to fix them, modify them and have fun with them (4, 6 or 8).

Jake..I also own a 911 and I don't consider myself a prick and I never got an allowance from my dad (or my mom for that matter)...I hate stereotyping!

On topic again...914 with a 200hp six is fast and the engine when it's up there in the rev's just sounds and feels like you are in a racing porsche. Think of driving down that long straight..screaming six..and you head into the curves downshifting and keeping that engine high in the rev's...pure racing porsche sound. For me, the experience just brings in the feel and SOUND of pure racing porsche. Now, long time ago I had a built up 4 and the feeling was the same (fast screamer) but the sound wasn't "racing" porsche. Winding it out you just had a more throaty 4 sound...just didn't add much to my "experience" of pretending to be in that racing heritage sounding six.

Jim

[KELTY360]

Please let me know when Jerry starts posting on the 914club board to drum up business. LOL! Hope I dont embarrass you too much with my arrogance. Its just a problem with us guys with six cylinder motors we feel like royalty when we drive real Porsches. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Care for some Merlot......we have a lovely '74 we've just dusted off. And the cheese! The Brie is to die for........but you might prefer the Velveeta. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/bootyshake.gif)


(IMG:style_emoticons/default/poke.gif)

[Jake Raby]

Jake..I also own a 911 and I don't consider myself a prick and I never got an allowance from my dad (or my mom for that matter

There are exceptions... BUT (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Oh yeah, the sound thing:

Do you guys know who buys something automotive based on sound???

SIXTEEN YEAR OLDS!!! What a joke!!!

My 4's sound like a V8 when they have carbs and a Tangerine header.. With EFI there isn't a single hint of intake sound (IMG:style_emoticons/default/happy11.gif)

I like them like that, it increases the stealth factor even more...

[Trekkor]

I'm surprise and embarrassed by the arrogance some six converts. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ohmy.gif)

And then we have this last post from "your guy".


I guess we're all jerks.


KT

[Jake Raby]

Based on the way you and Grant act, I'd have to say so..

He is not "My guy"... He is my customer and is very pleased with what I created and is only upholding it the same as you and grant- don't get pissed at him for having pride in that....

[eeyore]

La dee da dee dum...

It doesn't appear Jenny or Meredith are monitoring this thread, so...

[Trekkor]

Sir, I think you missed the point of my post.

The "your guy" . You are McMark's Guy.

He said we we're arrogant .
I was pointing out that you OPENLY and PUBLICLY admitted to price hiking to close the door on clients you don't want to have one of you prized motors. ( in your post #153 )

I think that's wierd. Like the IP tracking and posting on this board when you show to be "offline" (IMG:style_emoticons/default/unsure.gif)

If I meet the rare client that I do not want to work for, I just tell them.

KT

[jim912928]

Jake...I'm not 16 and I don't make automotive decisions based on sound....914fan asked about the experience and nobody can deny the heritage of a porsche flat six...it is their signature and just about everybody on this planet loves that sound...it IS part of the experience (which was asked). It is not what I base my decisions on.

But, feel free to bash away cause I also drive a 928 (oh god..a wasserpumper!...and a harley vrod (hey, porsche designed vtwin in that baby, 120hp, wasserpumper...oh, and it revs high and SOUNDS cool! lol)...i tend to go my own way.

914fan...see if there are any six conversions around you and ask for a ride...get a feel for the difference between your four and someone elses six...hey, try a v8 conversion too if somebody is close...different ride but if you like drag racing you'll love the straightline acceleration!

So, anybody close to Nick with any different engine combo's to give him a real taste?