6 vs 4 Options

[aircooledboy]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/yellowsleep[1].gif)
Man does this get old.

I am absolutely no fan of Jake's interpersonal skills. Truth is, I think they hurt his business, based on my own personal experience. BUT, the idea that some guys bust his balls for directly participating in a discussion about his life's work, and doing so with passion, hurts my brain. Agree with him or not, does it get any better than having direct input from an undisputed leader on the subject? You'd rather hear it from somebody who heard it from somebody? The constant cracks about "infomercials" and then shots at somebody who actually has an engine you accuse Raby of over-representing really make you look like an ass hat. And not in a good way.

For what it's worth.

[Lou W]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/yellowsleep[1].gif)
Man does this get old.

BUT, the idea that some guys bust his balls for directly participating in a discussion about his life's work, and doing so with passion, hurts my brain. Agree with him or not, does it get any better than having direct input from an undisputed leader on the subject? You'd rather hear it from somebody who heard it from somebody? The constant cracks about "infomercials" and then shots at somebody who actually has an engine you accuse Raby of over-representing really make you look like an ass hat. And not in a good way.

For what it's worth.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif)


Quik914, Nice looking car, yes I'd like to see pictures of the engine and exhaust. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[SirAndy]

The constant cracks about "infomercials" and then shots at somebody who actually has an engine you accuse Raby of over-representing really make you look like an ass hat. And not in a good way.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif)

riddle me this ...

- i *love* the big fours and all the hard work jake has put into them!
- i'm installing a (more or less) stock 3.6L /6 ...
- i still think, on equal footing, a /4 would spank a /6 on a tight AX course and a /6 would spank a /4 on the big track.
- i don't think you (you know who you are) can compare the economical feasibility of putting a *used* /6 into your car to a freshly build up /4 with similar HP output. yes, *you* got a great deal on your *used* /6. so what? how does that relate to the rest of us? T-Man is always quick to tell us that he did his /6 conversion for under $4k. yeah, he got the motor for what? $1k? and does that number include any of his time spent? i don't think so. how in the world can you compare that to a turnkey /4 (or even a kit that has all new and shiny parts but needs assembly) and keep a straight face?

you guys are nuts ...
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/screwy.gif) Andy

[Jake Raby]

This thread went exactly where all of them have in the past.. I REALLY tried not to make it any worse than it normally is, hence my reservation in posting at the very beginning....

As stated in my bio on my site, I admittedly do have a condition that does make me VERY intense with what I believe in. Its something that makes me good at doing anything thats mechaincal, or in my realm. It also gives me a huge amount of drive and bullheadedness..

With that comes the fact that this condition, known as Asperger's syndrome also creates social bariers for those of us that have the "issue".. Part of those social barriers is the fact that I don't comprehend what makes people mad, or hurts their feelings very well- or at all....

This is not an excuse for the "Image thing" but it is an explanation for some of the things that I do that piss people off... I don't say I'm sorry too much because I don't think I need to- but I really do.

So when I say that the only thing that matters to me is the Type 4 engine, it isn't an exaggeration... Just ask my wife, she has to live with it- Thank goodness she understands!

Now, I am still willing to offer up an engine for a challenge as I think it would be an interesting bit of experimentation, to see the differences in the same car..

Oh yeah, I didn't hike the price up on Grant, and when we talked I didn't think he was a prick judging from my notes from the chat... When I don't want to build something for someone, I'm just like trekkor, I tell them.. Hell I sent back a 5K buck deposit check to a 356 guy last week, we were never going to get along!!

With that being said, I do APOLOGIZE for pissing you guys off, I get a little too involved and when that happens the only thing that matters is winning, not feelings, not anything...

[McMark]

V for Vendetta (IMG:style_emoticons/default/zorro.gif)

Spreading misinformation is payback for Jake.... uh.... having high prices? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif)

Go get him Grant! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/thumb3d.gif)

[nebreitling]

i'm not afraid of some healthy conflict, but at this point, i only care about this thread insofar as i don't want any bad blood between my friends.

[race914]

Ok, back to the original topic.

Here is another perspective that I received from Rich Bontempi (High Performance House)

He has (among many cars) a 914-4 2.0 and a 914-6 3.0 (vette eater). He confided to me that he runs almost just as fast times with his 4 than he does with the 6, plus he enjoys driving the 4 more than the 6 because the lighter weight lets him outbrake and 'toss' the 4 around in the corners.

That is one of the reasons, along with my own experinces, that I've stuck with my 4.

To prove I'm not totally biased, we also own a 914-6 with an 86 3.2 (Tricia's car). Cool car, fantastic street car! Fun track car! But, boy can you feel that weight back there. It has 944 turbo brakes, but I can still go deeper into the corners with my 4 with M calipers.... And with the reduced weight in the 4, I can almost keep up on the straights with the 6 (3.2with a chip making around 230hp)

Can I pick one over the other? Tough question. All I can say is that after driving the 3.2 914, I still like my 4 and have no plans to abandon it and convert to a six... I enjoy the 4 too much.

Which one do I prefer on the track. The 4. Which one is a straight line rocketship on the street: the 6. Truely different beasts. I like them both for different reasons.

Also relavant to this thread. On the track, the 3.2 six is hardly breathing hard to make 230 hp. Never gets above 180. Can drive it hard all day. The 2.2 four is tweeked, running at the upper limit, gets hot and needs care and feeding between run sessions (emptying the catch can, etc.) But taking care of it is part of the 'love affair' I'm enjoying.

Here is some of the 'under dog' fun factor. At a recent event I outran a new lotus elise with my 4. The owner was confused on how I could beat his new high tech car with a 914-4. If I had been driving the 3.2 six, it would have been "of course you beat me, you have a big six". To be honest, that is part of the fun for my keeping the 4.

Future Plans. I'm thinking about putting the dual Phase 9 setup on the 6. I'm thinking about some of Jake's dual plug heads for the 4.

Just wanted to provide my experience with both cars for this thread.

[Allan]

The only issue I have with this debate is the misinformation campaign by the cheap six contingency. Those that ended up with a bum engine that needed a rebuild tend not to post in these threads.

I have no idea what the PO paid for the motor in my car so I don't have a comparison number for ya but, with only about 500 miles put on it after the conversion I ended up with 6k in repairs. I'm "GUESSING" that in my case, the number is gonna be close to 8k for a solid, leak-free 200 hp six. This isn't including the cost for the actual conversion.

I may be the exeption as the worst case end of the spectrum.

[anthony]

I don't get why this discussion always ends up with Grant and Trekkor versus Jake.

Jake, you should actually consider it the highest honor that your name has become synonymous with "big four".

My advice is just to ignore Grant and Trekkor. It's obvious to me that just bait you just to push your buttons.

[Lavanaut]

Just wanted to provide my experience with both cars for this thread.

That was excellent feedback, thanks for posting. At that start of this thread I was 95% certain that I wanted to go the 6 route. Now I'm not as sure based on some of the information I've read here. I'm driving around town (and it's a small town) 85% of the time. Am I really going to get out of a 6 what it has to offer?

Mud-slinging aside, there's some great information here! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

A 2056 with 125 hp is amazing and you can build one for around $2000.

Tell me more!! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/chowtime.gif) PM me if this isn't the place...

[anthony]

A 2056 with 125 hp is amazing and you can build one for around $2000.

Tell me more!! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/chowtime.gif) PM me if this isn't the place...

Listen to Jake's radio shows on:

9/7
9/14
10/26

9/7 is specifically the 120hp 2056 episode. Actually just listen to all the shows for great info.

http://www.aircooledtechnology.com/radio/

[Mueller]

I don't get why this discussion always ends up with Grant and Trekkor versus Jake.

Basicly they are saying that anyone that spends more money on a /4 than what a "cheap" /6 conversion can be done for is stupid and ignorant and they just cannot see the logic of spending big bucks on a /4....so until someone can build a 200hp /4 for just a few grand they will always have to tell people that a /6 is a better choice... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Jake, you should actually consider it the highest honor that your name has become synonymous with "big four".

My advice is just to ignore Grant and Trekkor. It's obvious to me that just bait you just to push your buttons.

[Jake Raby]

A little bit of good comes from everything bad...
Thats what my dad always says and he's the wisest man I have ever known..

If one or two people gained even one sentence from this thread that helps them make a selection that will keep them involved in these cars and loving them- thats really all that matters..

[porschecb]

Well said! Can we all go out and play now? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[KELTY360]

Just wanted to provide my experience with both cars for this thread.

That was excellent feedback, thanks for posting. At that start of this thread I was 95% certain that I wanted to go the 6 route. Now I'm not as sure based on some of the information I've read here. I'm driving around town (and it's a small town) 85% of the time. Am I really going to get out of a 6 what it has to offer?

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif)

Not being in the Bay Area or SoCal, cheap sixes aren't exactly low hanging fruit. Hearing feedback on the weight differential is instructive. I've always appreciated the underdog status of the 914/4 and anything that can enhance the advantages of that platform is positive.

I for one am glad that Jake is doing the heavy lifting on the TIV and remains willing to share his passion despite the attacks. He's certainly willing to let you know where he stands.

[Bleyseng]

I feel its best to try to give both sides of the story.

Yeah some guys have done cheap six conversion for under $5k. Thats the SwapMeet Louie way and it does work and fine if you go that route.

Yeah, its been tried in the big four world tooo and they don't last too long either.

Driving experiences? I have driven a stockish six (2.2L), 1.7's,1.8's,2.0L and 2056's and a 3.2L 914 set up for the track.
The stockish six was nice but didn't even have the feel of power my 2056 does.
1.7,1.8 and 2.0L are fun in their own way depending on how the car is setup.
The 3.2l six conversion was really fast and since it was caged stiff and handled amazingly. A really fun nice car.

All bets aside money no object-I would install a 3.6 in a 914, but I really like the idea of a modern 4 with all the goodies and 200hp which is where I am leaning. It also keeps my car so I can "turn it back to stock" if I want.

For the money, a 125hp 2056 is the ticket after that is just up to how much you want to spend.$$$

[Trekkor]

I'm going to go back and review every post I have made on this thread.

I will not edit.

I don't believe I have dished any insults or direspect, nor called anyone anything for the choices they make.

I said why I like the "cheap SIX" route.

Careful about putting words in my mouth. I never called anyone stupid or ignorant.

Like I said, I will make a full review, yet I believe I have remained civil.


KT

[Trekkor]

Done...You got nothing on me!!

I posted #s:
16,25,31,32,34,39,40,42,48,59,60,61,70,73,74,
80,86,90,94,97,102,104,125,130,138,139,141,157,161,179...

Some of my favorites:

Last time we heard, I thought 200HP FOUR's are over $15k plus and need constant care or they will suffer. ( explode )

I haven't heard of any bargain hunting happy endings on any high output FOURS.

Oh and, why didn't the 914 GT entries at LeMans run FOURs?

I may be out on a limb on this one, but I think the reason they ran SIXES at LeMans was because they were interested in winning or at least finishing the race.

The one thing that is always missing in these 4 vs 6 debates, is the PRICE of a new built 200hp FOUR. Delivered turn key. *everything*

For me, I just won't spend that kind of money on a FOUR.
That's who I am

I've never driven in a big FOUR powered 914.
I'm not about to pay $15k to find out, either.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/popcorn[1].gif)

If it does...We'd need a real-time 914Club web cast with a host and music.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/yawn.gif)

Do we have a thread turned infomercial smiley?

Anybody here with a 911 convert to a FOUR? ( crickets )

I guess we're all jerks.

I was on my usual good behavior.
Nice try though...


KT

[DanT]

with all that has come before....

I have had a stock 1.7L, 2.0L a 914-6 2.7L RS, and again a 2.0L.


I have loved them all for various reasons....

When I got my current car I had the opportunity to do a 6 conversion with either a 2.0L 6 from a 1965 911, or a 2.7L 6. I chose to stay with the 4 cylinder because of weight, cost of a thorough conversion, and keeping the car the way it came (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) The 914-6 was best on the track and the 4 cylinders were best at AX for all the reasons that have been stated in previous posts to this thread.


With that said, I feel there is noting wrong with a nice 6 conversion (I prefer a carbed 2.7L over some of the bigger motors)

This season in GGR AX I competed directly (in my class, don't ask why) with a 964 with wider wheels and engine upgrades, 996s, Boxsters and Boxster Ss, and various other 911s and 944S2s. I won every event I competed in this season with my little well balanced 2.0L. The motor is completely stock other than the Euro headers. It also has `160K miles on it, so it is very tired and in need of a rebuild...but it still held up it's end of the bargain....

I plan on rebuilding using either Euro 2.0L P/Cs with slightly bumped c/r or a 2056 with cam etc....

I am doing this because I like the lite and tossable feel you get with the 4 cylinder car.
I am in with Greg (race914) on that one.. I like looking and feeling like the underdog with my little 4 cylinder car, I have even went with the billet front hubs so I could stay with the sleeper look of the 4 bolt wheels, and still have vented front rotors and bigger cailipers (Ms).
Give me a nicely tuned and set up 4 cylinder and I will happily kick butt on lots of 911s 996s Boxsters and whatever else shows up in my class or overall next season...

And I plan on going to the track with my little putput next season....

OK....now I feel better (IMG:style_emoticons/default/dry.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blink.gif)

[Flycut]

After reading this thread It seems Obvious having both the 4 and 6 would be the best option available. Thank you Race914 for your posting, I am rethinking my decision about doing a 6 conversion after reading your posting. Jake raby I am hoping to someday be able to write you a check for a turnkey with all the goodies.
I have enjoyed this thread from the start and definetly learned alot, Thanks. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/driving.gif)