6 vs 4 Options

[Mueller]

Call around and shop around.

A good used SIX in varying trim can be found from $2-6.5k every single day.

FYI...There is a good 2.0 in our classifieds right now for $2k

Does it put down 200HP??? Nope, and how much will it take to make it so and freshen it up??

and Spencer at Partsheaven will sell you a 2.7 longblock for $2500.

Does it put down 200HP??? Nope, and how much will it take to make it so and freshen it up??

Then there is EASY and don't forget E-Bay and Craigslist.

Why would I lie?

Not a lie, just omitting some of the truth (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)


KT

[Trekkor]

good points, he does have a couple of 3.2's however, and I just saw an ad on craiglist...

What did Andy pay for that 3.6 again...?


Do as you please.


I know I will.


KT

[TravisNeff]

I think you guys are trying to compare a DIY six conversion on a fully built -4 by Jake. I would think with one of his kits you can hit the mark for a helluva lot less than 15k. This should be DIY vs. DIY or pay for built vs pay for converted

[McMark]

SPOT ON TRAVIS!!!

Trekkor paid $3k for his installation and let's choose a price of $4k for a motor. You got your motor cheap Trekkor, so please don't take this as doubting your choice to go six. I'm just trying to make a fair comparison.

I can buy a 2316 engine kit from Jake for under $5000. Add an oil cooler for $1000 and still be under the initial $7000 for a six and probably have more power/longevity.

The engine kits are not that complicated to put together and there are a bunch of friends here and on Jake's forums helping people do it correctly. So a kit is a realistic option.

I don't think you're lying, I just think you're misinformed. I also wouldn't attack anyone for choosing to go with a six motor, it's their car and all I really want is for people to love and drive their cars. But if you're going to ask my opinion, I'll say that I don't understand why the six is so popular.

[SirAndy]

What did Andy pay for that 3.6 again...?

i've got a smoking deal on my engine. $7500 ...
now add all the conversion parts, motor mount, oil-tank, front oil-cooler etc.
then add McMark's hours. then add my hours.

then compare to a turn-key T4 if you wish. suddenly, the turnkey T4 doesn't look that expensive anymore ...
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool_shades.gif) Andy

[Jake Raby]

Don't use the cost of my turnkey engines for comparison... I don't build in volume and do not want to, I won't even complete 20 engines this year... When the engine is bought from me it has 80-100 hours into it, not counting 8-12 hours on the dyno- do the math.

15K will buy a roller cammed engine making 200+ HP and will equip it with programmble EFI with direct igntion, my cooling system etc, etc..

My 2316 K is currently at 185HP, but is being reconfigured now due to newer head technology opening up the possibilities of more cam, and more power. The 2316 will be over 200 reliable HP in about 3 months- in kit form.

I am also doing a step by step video and even offering tool rental to help assemble these kits, you can build the entire engine even if you don't own a 13mm wrench... With the video, it takes a total dimwit to screw it up!

Most of my engines run 10-12K these days and now 190 HP is easy- last year 160 was easy, 190 was a bitch...

[LvSteveH]

I don't think "which is better" is a fair question. I just depend on the application.

I need to do a motor for my 912E and I happen to have a fresh 230hp 2.7L sitting right next to it. It was very tempting to make a 911 out of my 912. There were only 2000 912E's, and how many are left? It would be a crime to put anything but a type4 in it.

With 914's it's a very tough call, as they came from the factory in both forms. I agree with where this thread has gone with regard to 200hp being the magic number. I've always thought that 200hp was "just right" in a 914.

Buying a used six engine is a crap shoot. Roll the dice, you might get an engine with 75k miles left, or you could crap out and need major work very soon. These are 20-30 year old motors, so there are no guarantees in buying used. I feel bad for anyone who banks on buying a $6000 used motor and ends up needing major work without having it in the budget. That potential is always there.

With current technology, I'd guess that 200hp could be had for around $10,000 in a four or a six. At the end of the day it just depends on what you want.

Engine choices have a lot to do with character. If it was all about horsepower per doller we'd all be driving around with 350hp V8's. Engine choices in a 914 are limited only by your imagination. Fortunately, everyone wants something a little different.

If you put FlatVW’s Raby powered car (RIP) next to a nice 200hp six, and asked me which one I’d like to have, I’d be torn. In the end, I’d choose the four cylinder car, because there will never be another one like it, and it was a work of art in my opinion. That says a lot, because I really like 914-6’s.

If you look at what guys spend to build horsepower in most vintage cars, a big type 4 or a six conversion is extremely cheap in comparison. I’ve driven just about every 914 engine option out there, and every one of them put a mile on my face, from the 70hp Dijon bomb, to a 400hp tube framed V8.

If I had to choose just one, well, I'm not ready to answer that yet. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Trekkor]

I am always happy when someone get's to drive a car they like.

That's the whole point of this site, right? It's not about who's right and who's wrong. Helping your 914 Bud's, I'm all for that, too.

For me, I just won't spend that kind of money on a FOUR.
That's who I am.


KT

[nebreitling]

i can go either way. 200 hp is somewhat expensive no matter which route you take. 200 hp becomes very expensive if you are limited by rules on displacement, etc.

i like the fours -- especially for street and AX -- and never really bought into the 'mystique' of the six. there is still an impression, however, that they are not up to abuse of the track. i can say that after some initial sorting, my <$3k four held together quite nicely with track abuse. they are simple engines, and i like that.

at this point, though, i don't really care. give me something fast, and i'll drive it (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[porschecb]

Can we not just DRIVE!!!!!!!! We all know the choices in engines!! this wears me out and nothing gets solved! So figure it out!!!!!!! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/driving.gif)

[jimkelly]

a heated debate - is good for all.

i emailed jake yesterday sorta asking this very question.

besides the 2316 kit plus shipping, what else is needed, carbs $, header $, DTM $, mallory distributor $, raby machining of case halves $ - what else ?? and cost.

I think Jake's awesome work and ability to keep some prices down - changes this overall debate on a daily basis - bravo Jake !!!

I think I would prefer a fresh 4 over a used 6 of similar HP but I can see - easily - Trekkor's point. I think a bullet proof 150 or so HP 4 would be great but I have yet to own a 914 reliable driver that could be taken to the track : (

[anthony]

besides the 2316 kit plus shipping, what else is needed, carbs $, header $, DTM $, mallory distributor $, raby machining of case halves $ - what else ?? and cost.

It's probably easiest to start with a full core engine (1.8 or 2.0L) but you could start with a 1.7. For core parts you need to send Jate a 2L crank, flywheel, and 914 fan. You'll need all the little bits off of the core engine to assemble the new engine. If you start with a 1.7, you'll need to find a 2L crank to send Jake or pay the core charge.

You also need fuel and spark. You could use a stock 914 distributor but the Mallory is way better. For fuel you can do Webers or EFI. (You can't use stock injection but having a complete stock injection setup would be needed if you wanted to do Megasquirt or an other FI system,)

[Brett W]

Why are we using 200hp as the mark of performance? That is the low end for a six and the high end for a four. Lets push this argument out to something a little more realistic.

250-350hp. Can't even come close with a four cylinder. Durability goes to the six. Notice the power curves listed a few pages back. The six makes more power everywhere.

There really isn't an argument, you either like the fours or sixes or both. Build your car to make you happy and enjoy it for what it is.

AS far as race cars go, with the same rules a four cylinder car will be faster and easier on tires, but it will be an expensive grenade.

[eeyore]

There really isn't an argument, you either like the fours or sixes or both. Build your car to make you happy and enjoy it for what it is.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif)

(However, the preceding graph is a 2.3 four vs a 3.0 six. Sixes start as low as 110hp, not above 200. Plus 200hp is still a little bit on the extreme for an all-out 2.0 six, or even a stock 2.4. N'est pas?)

[J P Stein]

Should my 2.7L need a refresh (assuming it doesn't go BOOM)
a bottom end rebuild kit (containing all the expendables) is 600-700 bucks).
A valve grind is less than 500 bucks ( springs and intake valves are fairly inexpensive should they be required....exhaust valves....aren't)

More wear would include pistons, 1K & cylinders replated, 600 bucks(last I looked).
I'm a DYI kinda guy so best to worst case is 1200 to 2800 bucks.

Tack on 80-100 hours of "drop the car off at the shop" time and you're up in Jake territory (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

I put about 6500 bucks in my 2.7 and got a reliable 200 hp including intake & ignition.

[anthony]

Why are we using 200hp as the mark of performance? That is the low end for a six and the high end for a four. Lets push this argument out to something a little more realistic 250-350hp.

The original poster mentioned 200hp. Actually I think a 914 with a 160 foot pounds of torque 2270 would be a pretty nice ride. I'll actually tell you guys how it is after I get my kit installed this winter.

What convinced me about big fours was when I took a ride in McMark's car. He has a 2056 with a mild cam and EFI. I think it dynoed at 95hp at the wheels which is around 110hp at the crank. His car was a little screamer. It moved so much better than my stock 2L. It was like night and day.

I agree that over 250, even over 200, that one should think about a big six. So how do you get 350hp in a six? 3.8L? turbo? On the other hand I think the small sixes are a waste of money unless you get the engine super cheap and it is at least an E or S engine making over 160hp.

[grantsfo]

Lets be real T4 fans. A 200 HP T4 is a handfull and very expensive. It does cost a mint to build a reliable 200 HP T4. Youre looking at Nickies, trick heads, cams, fuel injection, special machine work, tons of dyno work, etc. Then you have all sorts of costs associated with clutch, fuel delivery, oil cooler, etc that you would have with a six conversion. Once you get that 200 HP T4 all sorted youre looking at a hefty bill and then youre not assured of an engine that will be reliable long term. You run lean by mistake and that crackling T4 beast is toast. We have also heard more than our share of home built T4 horror stories. I think its time for some to stop drinking the Georgia Kool Aid.

It is easy to find a 3.0 six for $3K to $5K. Those motors will make 200 HP all day long and purr like a kitten on the street for years.

If you want a 200 HP 4 do a Subi conversion. After seeing a turbo Subi conversion this past weekend they are truly impressive! ...and you have Japanese reliability! Nothing cooler than a 914 with a blow off valve poping away as you smoke the tires with 250 HP.

I'd say T4 is a viable motor up to about 175 HP for a dedicated autocross car. If you are a risk taker you could do a kit and come close to that 175 HP number. You'll hear lots of talk about that mythical reliable monster 200 hp T4, but you wont see many - I beliieve they are like Bigfoot ...Some Hillbillie putting on some big feet and claiming to see a big fury monster. Reliable 200 HP T4's belong in the Bigfoot museum space.

Let me qualify this post by saying if I had unlimited funds I would have a wicked lightweight Raby T4 powered AX car and a 3.6 liter six track car. Both are good and serve different purposes. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/happy11.gif)

[Jake Raby]

Grant, There you go again..
Getting out of line and creating a post that gets off topic and ends up with yelling..

I don't appreciate your indirect slams, not a damn bit....

BTW- Georgia Kool Aid doesn't have an "E".. That must be a California thing..

Oh yeah, if Type 4 engines suck so bad why the hell is your IP logged on most of my radio show downloads and why did you bother becoming a member of my new forums???

Just wondering which side you are really on??? Please explain yourself...

[Trekkor]

It's not about sides.

He said if he had "unlimited funds" he'd have the baddest motor you could build.


KT

[Trekkor]

your IP logged on

that's weird...

freaky internet spying... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/unsure.gif)


Wow...


KT