6 vs 4 Options

[Trekkor]

There are some cool deals on E-bay right now.

Like this one:
911 motor


KT

[iamchappy]

I like the six's better.. This ones going in mine. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/dead horse.gif)

[Bleyseng]

Comparing a used six cost to a rebuilt custom four isn't fair. There have been several BBS members who installed used sixes that didn't last long. A six rebuild isn't cheap-$10k+.

The 200hp kit 4 motors will fill the need for guys who want to stay witha four and not convert everything over to run a six.

Post this price list of the new parts to convert to a six. Brad posted 4 years ago a list that was $4.5k and prices have gone up since then. Not Swapmeet Louie prices, new.

I just think its great that there is this option now as 10 years ago a big 4 130hp that lasted 20k miles was big news.

[Matt Romanowski]

I've been watching this thread since the beginning and have had about 4 different post written up before I deleted them....

I wonder how many people have really driven both big fours and sixes......

They are both really cool cars. I have a 2270 in my stock looking 914 that I love. It's faster than any 911 up to a C2, pulls 944 Turbos on the straights, corners with almost anything. It's really fun. Did I mention that I love it.....

I've driven the blue car Martin Baker just bought with a 2.4S motor, cage, all the goodies. Fun car too. Very different. Much easier to drive fast, but I don't think it's ulimately as fast.... Feels heavier, but with the S cams it's fun to drive.

I have a race car that was just sold on these pages. It's now got a stock 2.7 in it (motor and rebuild for under $6k by one of the best mechanics in the Northest to end everyone's speculation). It's again a very different car. We've only had it out for two days, but it's much easier to drive up to about 75% of the speed of my street car. Overall, I think it will be much easier to drive. It's got about twice the torque, has a broad powerband, and is never really off cam.

Both a high horsepower four and six are great motors. Overall, the sixes are much more reliable. You can take a stock 6, do a top end, increase the compressoin, change cams and still get over 200k miles on the bottom end. Can't do that with a four. Horsepower and torque are never issues with sixes.

Still, I built a big four for my car. Why - It's fun. I enjoyed building it, tuning it, driving it, passing 911s with it.....You really have to drive and ride in cars with both motors and pick what's right for you. Someone said it right before that you just have to enjoy your car. Stock, Modified, four, six, Chevy, Subi, whatever. Drive it and enjoy it.

[DNHunt]

So what new info is there? The /4's are making a bit more power. Maybe there are a few more affordable /6's out there. The truth is this issue will never be settled and very few people change their minds.

At some point, you have to take a jump into one camp or the other and live with it. The only really good advice is look at your deal very carefully and get as much info about that specific engine as you can be it a /6 or /4. People have had sucess both ways and people have been burned both ways.

Dave

[Lavanaut]

The truth is this issue will never be settled and very few people change their minds.

"This issue" is supposed to be how cars with the different engine types drive compared to one another. Not which is better! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/headbang.gif) "Better" when talking about 914 engines at this performance/price point is clearly a subjective topic, and obviously one that cannot have a "correct" answer.

I've been watching this thread since the beginning and have had about 4 different post written up before I deleted them....

The one you did finally post was great reading Matt! Way to bring this thread back around...maybe some more people with experience driving both engines will follow suit. Thanks too to SirAndy, Bleyseng, Brando, john rodgers, anthony (and so on) who have posted good info from that standpoint.

It's clear that everyone on this board has an opinion on which engine they prefer (including me), and opinions have their place. But as someone who is going to face this dilema at some point down the road (how am I going to upgrade my 2.0 4?), it would be great if people could save their opinions about which is better for another thread, and only post to this one if they have experience driving cars with both engine types. If you only have experience with one or the other, posting your opinion of that one engine type really isn't too helpful because you're not in a position to make an informed comparison.

Not to (IMG:style_emoticons/default/hijacked.gif) buuuut....while the original post was asking about 200 HP, it seems to me that number could be flexible when doing a comparison. If you've got experience driving both a 4 and a 6 in *any* HP range, that info seems appropriate for this thread. Hopefully 914fan, the starter of this thread, would agree.

And now back to (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ph34r.gif) ...

[kenschipper]

Of course the best solution is to have 1 of each. Oh if life were so good. Not sure but, I might have to move to Utah to pull that off.

Dave

I actually have one of each. a '74 2.0 four and a 1970 2.0 six. Both completely stock engines.

I purchased the 4 first for around $3,000 and could not believe the grin I had on my face after each drive. Three years late (3 months ago) I bought a beautiful 6 for around $20,000. The grin is even bigger, especially between 4,000k and 6,200k. The difference in sound and smoothness is amazing. Worth the $17,000 difference. Depends on how you look at it. I will keep the six forever. The kids only have permission to sell it when I'm senile and can no longer drive. We were going to sell the 4 when we bought the 6 but my wife likes the color (orange) so we are now keeping it for the kids to drive with dad when he goes autocrossing. (And they always beat me)

Add horsepower to either and I think the characteristics will remain pretty much the same.

Ken

[grantsfo]

Comparing a used six cost to a rebuilt custom four isn't fair. There have been several BBS members who installed used sixes that didn't last long. A six rebuild isn't cheap-$10k+.

The 200hp kit 4 motors will fill the need for guys who want to stay witha four and not convert everything over to run a six.

Post this price list of the new parts to convert to a six. Brad posted 4 years ago a list that was $4.5k and prices have gone up since then. Not Swapmeet Louie prices, new.

I just think its great that there is this option now as 10 years ago a big 4 130hp that lasted 20k miles was big news.

Life isnt fair typically. And some of us use that to our advantage. Given the market glut of used sixes there is a market for cheap "Swap Meet Louie" six conversion parts. The same cant be said for big bore T4 parts. Six conversion parts dont come close to $4,500 if you shop around. ..and you might as well exclude upgraded clutch, fuel management systems, headers, oil coolers and linkages if your comparing cost of a big T4 conversion as you need to do those things when you convert from a stock T4 to a big T4 as well. So six conversion costs start to look very very attractive. Funny thing is you will never see somone post all the costs associated with a 200 HP T4 conversion.

When we get back to the original question of this post I just couldnt imagine a streetable 200 HP T4 option that would come close to cost effeciency or reliability of a 200 HP six. Asking how those engines would compare in terms of feel is tough to answer as each could be built with different charateristics. I know my 2341cc 911 E six is much differnt than other small bores - mine feels more like a torquey 4 than a high reving six. It makes gobs of power and torque from 2500 rpm to 6000 RPM and then it runs out of steam.

[Trekkor]

Good point about comparing Big FOUR to a Mid SIX. ( BIG SIXES make more than 200hp )

I've never driven in a big FOUR powered 914.
I'm not about to pay $15k to find out, either.

I think we have all driven stock FOURs...And we liked it...We loved it!!
I run a small SIX. Many people said it was a waste of time and money.

This is by far the car that has brought me the most enjoyment.

When I can afford it, I will spend $3-6k for a 2.7-3.2 long block, move over all my intake, exhaust and other.

How can that be wrong?

KT

[Matt Romanowski]

Trekkor - Nobody is saying it's wrong. There are lots of motor configurations that people can run. From the sounds of it you really like what you have built and that's great. However, realize it's not for everyone. I didn't go that route becuase I viewed it as too easy. Not everyone can build a motor like mine. I enjoyed the entire project.

You have to remember that every car / motor is different and on the track everyone's driving skills change the picture. I've outrun 914's with 3.6s in them in a little 2270 four cyclinder. Was it becuase of horsepower or driving?

What's important is for everyone who spends whatever amount of money on a motor to be happy with it. Whether it's a little or big four, little or big six. As long as they enjoy it, who cares?

[Jake Raby]

There is one way to settle this..

Someone offer up a car...

I build a 200HP TIV for it and then some dedicated souls can install it and the swap it out with a six of similar output..

I'll limit my engine to being built from an engine kit offering with a 6K budget for internals..

Then take it to the AX, 1/4 mile, skid pad and Road course with both engines installed.. I have a 32 channel data logger with accelerometer and GPS to monitor corner speeds, trap speeds and G forces exerted with both engines, as well as temps..

Same driver, same car the only variable will be the power plant..

I'm willing to build the engine and pay shipping to the install/test site. I will also pay my own way to come there and ensure the TIV is installed correctly and will assist with the work... At the end of the day I'll take my engine home with me..

Thats how much I believe in what I create... If anyone or a group of people combined feel the same about their six feelings, step the fuck up and make it happen..... This is not BS and I'm willing to go to any part of the country to make it happen.

Put up, or shut up... Lets do it mid summer 2007, I'm buried till then.

[Trekkor]

What's important is for everyone who spends whatever amount of money on a motor to be happy with it. Whether it's a little or big four, little or big six. As long as they enjoy it, who cares?

Yes!!


KT

[Trekkor]

Jake, that sounds like fun.
I seriously doubt anyone will actually make this happen.

If I end up with a 200hp SIX by then, I may be your guy. ( serious )

On the other hand:

I'll limit my engine to being built from an engine kit offering with a 6K budget for internals..

I'm sure you could come up with the parts and build this.
But, isn't the 200hp TIV much higher than that, pricewise to the end user?

Are we talking a 2316 (?) . What does the machine work/balancing cost alone?

I'd love to see THE final cost breakdown listed item for item and the final pricetag for a reliable/streetable, turnkey, 200hp motor that could realistically live for 50-100k miles with some occasional DE and a/x use.


KT

[grantsfo]

There is one way to settle this..

Someone offer up a car...

I build a 200HP TIV for it and then some dedicated souls can install it and the swap it out with a six of similar output..

I'll limit my engine to being built from an engine kit offering with a 6K budget for internals..

Then take it to the AX, 1/4 mile, skid pad and Road course with both engines installed.. I have a 32 channel data logger with accelerometer and GPS to monitor corner speeds, trap speeds and G forces exerted with both engines, as well as temps..

Same driver, same car the only variable will be the power plant..

I'm willing to build the engine and pay shipping to the install/test site. I will also pay my own way to come there and ensure the TIV is installed correctly and will assist with the work... At the end of the day I'll take my engine home with me..

Thats how much I believe in what I create... If anyone or a group of people combined feel the same about their six feelings, step the fuck up and make it happen..... This is not BS and I'm willing to go to any part of the country to make it happen.

Put up, or shut up... Lets do it mid summer 2007, I'm buried till then.

Thats really not the point here. Realistically no one is going to be able to make a 200 HP T4 conversion for $6000 after adding all the required conversion parts on a stock car. Then lets talk about whether a big T4 that makes 200 HP is going to last as long as a mild 200 HP six. No way no how.

I dont think anyone doubts whether a T4 built with more torque might make the car move a little faster due to weight advantage. Its kind of a silly premise to begin with. This kind of proposal belongs on "Pinks" rather than a rational discussion on a 914 enthusiast board. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[BMXerror]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/dead horse.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/dead horse.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/dead horse.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/dead horse.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sheeplove.gif)
Woops... how'd that get in there?
Mark d.

[grantsfo]

Are we talking a 2316 (?) . What does the machine work/balancing cost alone?

KT

Isnt that free? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) Like I said you wont see anyone publishing full cost of a big T4 conversion (200 HP) as its embarrassingly expensive.

[DanT]

Are we talking a 2316 (?) . What does the machine work/balancing cost alone?

KT

Isnt that free? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) Like I said you wont see anyone publishing full cost of a big T4 conversion (200 HP) as its embarrassingly expensive.

Ask Randal....he should have pretty good idea at this point (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blink.gif)

[DanT]

Are we talking a 2316 (?) . What does the machine work/balancing cost alone?

KT

Isnt that free? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) Like I said you wont see anyone publishing full cost of a big T4 conversion (200 HP) as its embarrassingly expensive.

Ask Randal....he should have pretty good idea at this point (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blink.gif)

[Trekkor]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/popcorn[1].gif)

[Joe Ricard]

Does it have to be the same car? how about similar cars that have suspension and tires ready to go. My 70 914 is getting close to 1800 pounds and is still streetable.
The problem is with a six I would gain significant wieght and that would slow down the car is braking and cornering..

With my buddy behind the wheel this could be a very exciting day.

So to keep it equal it would be tough. the same car with the same brakes and suspension would suffer with a 6 and get REAL fast with a 4 of equal HP.