6 vs 4 Options

[iamchappy]

The topic of this thread is 6vs4 right.

I liked the 200hp - 4 over the 200 hp 3.0 - 6 "BUT"

Without getting into price or cost which wasn't part of the original topic, here is what I have done over the years.

Ive had both in search of the 914 car of my dreams
I had a 2.9 type 4 built for my first 914 it was very fun torquey as hell and blew up on an overrev when the tires spun after hitting some sand on the road during takeoff- 5000 miles of short lived fun but it wasn't my dream car.

Ive had a stock 3.0 sc 6 which was ok, but nothing to exciting, not the dream car.

Then a 8lb boosted turbocharged 3.0 which was more exciting than you could imagine, almost dream car.

Now I am almost ready to try out the new and improved 3.12 engine boosting 1bar
that has me actually worried on how scary it maybe until I get used to it.
Some guys get horsepower happy and go to extreme limits I think that now that my engine will be producing over 400hp, I hope I am done creating my 914 dream car and it had to have a monster six in it.

[McMark]

Trekkor has a car with four cylinder mounts still in it and access to track events. We could dyno his existing motor to get a baseline. A four swap would take about 90 minutes. I'm willing to buy what I need to build a HP matched motor with no gimmicks or secret formulas. If Trek and Jake are into this, lets talk.

[Matt Romanowski]

Joe,

The car should be the same. If the car is up to a true 200 hp motor, it's going to have all the brakes and basic chassis set up ready. The real difference is the spring rates would change.

This is starting to get nonsensical and emotional.

If we really want to start a debate on the motors longevity, etc, then lets talk real facts. I'm not a six expert, but a 911 has 6 main bearings (one for each cyclinder in effect)? A four has three that really support / counter the rod forces. Sixes have a much stronger case design. Sixes are drysumped and have better oiling. Sixes have pistons squirters. Sixes have better head designs, overhead cams, etc.

Again, it's really a personal preference. I understand that Jake has something to prove as it's how he makes his living, but the motors are vastly different.

[DNHunt]

Seems like you caught me up on something similar. But wasn't this the point of the original question. Now when there's an offer to test the same car it's silly?

I dont think anyone doubts whether a T4 built with more torque might make the car move a little faster due to weight advantage. Its kind of a silly premise to begin with. This kind of proposal belongs on "Pinks" rather than a rational discussion on a 914 enthusiast board. smile.gif

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool_shades.gif)

Dave

[Trekkor]

My car would make a nice/perfect experiment platform.

The FOUR mounts, FOUR accellerator cable and set up for carbs and MSD equipped.

Drop engine/trans, swap motors, raise engine trans.

A four man crew could do this in 60 minutes.
Between run groups at Alameda.

SIX am, FOUR pm...Sounds crazy. I'd do it.

Of course it will never *actually* happen.

If it does...We'd need a real-time 914Club web cast with a host and music.


KT (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

[anthony]

The only issue I have with this debate is the misinformation campaign by the cheap six contingency. Those that ended up with a bum engine that needed a rebuild tend not to post in these threads.

A 2316 doesn't cost $15K. Sure a turnkey motor with all the goodies costs that much but for a fair comparision call Jerry Woods and ask how much a turnkey 911 six would cost from his shop. I bet it would easily be over $20K.

There is no secret on what the 2316 motor costs. All the prices are listed at Jake's store. $4800 for the kit, $200 for shipping, and you need a core motor. A decent header will cost you at least $600, $300 for a Mallory distributor, and $1100 for brand new Webers or about $1300 for an SDS fuel injection system or $500 for Megasquirt. I come up with $7,300 using SDS. Let's just say $8,000 with a few extras thrown in and that is for a brand new motor, brand new Webers or SDS injection, brand new clutch, and a brand new Mallory distributor.

If you go the six route, for $8K you get $4000 in conversion parts and you get a $4000 engine. $4000 buys a higher mileage 3.0L six with high mileage stock CIS injection. I think one would be pretty lucky to get out the door for $8K and not encouter any problems that cost extra.


Jake, if you want to upgrade my kit to a 200hp 2316 I'll be your 2316 west coast ambassador. I'll give every 914club member I meet at 914 breakfasts a ride to remember and I'll be at 10 autocrosses a year. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Jake Raby]

I'm sure you could come up with the parts and build this.
But, isn't the 200hp TIV much higher than that, pricewise to the end user?

Thats according what they start with..

BUT generally carbs and exhaust are all thats needed, recently one of my kit customers got 170 ponies at the rear wheels with his 2316 kit in a 914 with a 1-3/4" header we have been working on in house for a while, for a 914.. That header is not 1K bucks.

Are we talking a 2316 (?) . What does the machine work/balancing cost alone?

What machine work? what balancing? All the machine work and balancing is done as part of the costs of the kit. The crank drops right into the case and you can hand clearance the material necessary in 45 minutes, or a machine shop will do it for 50 bucks in a mill.. With a kit I take alll the guesswork away.

I'd love to see THE final cost breakdown listed item for item and the final pricetag for a reliable/streetable, turnkey, 200hp motor that could realistically live for 50-100k miles with some occasional DE and a/x use.

But that always varys, based on what the person has to begin with and what corners they want to cut..

In todays world Nickies and exotic parts are no longer needed to make 200HP from a /4 reliable- we can do it with a 96mm bore and an 80mm stroke with a bitchin set of heads and less than 9.3:1 CR..

As I stated, if you want to get real time scientific data the only way to do that is with the same car and same driver with the logger in place and two different engines being swapped out as fast as possible. I am willing to take my time to contribute to this, is anyone truly dedicated to the six??

I'll also say if you want to compare the engines at a higher level output I'm up for that too.. I have a new 230HP offering that needs some press anyway and guess what, it's less than 2.4L, it does it all at less than 9.2:1 CR and makes 235 Lb/Ft of torque....

[grantsfo]

The only issue I have with this debate is the misinformation campaign by the cheap six contingency. Those that ended up with a bum engine that needed a rebuild tend not to post in these threads.

How many 200 HP T4 owners do we have on the 914club forum aside from Jake? Nuf said. I'm brutally honest about my six conversion its certainly not wort free, but I didnt expect a $2000 engine to not have a few issues.

It would be interesting for you to track all your expenses in your mild 2270 T4 conversion project. My sense is you are underestimating your conversion costs. This has been billed as the cheap big bore and you got your kit on sale. When do you expect to have your motor built?

[Trekkor]

cheap six contingency

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif) I kinda like that.
I knew I'd find my place in the world... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/Jumpy.gif)


KT

[iamchappy]

Again I would like to bring back to everyones attention that this thread as I interpret it is, "NOT ABOUT COST"(which is where these threads always go), but whats a more enjoyable engine in a 914 a 200hp 4 or a 200 hp 6

I have never had any experience with a souped up 200hp small 6 which I would think would be very fun only the 200 hp 4.
The engine characteristics of the 3.0 SC engine wouldn't be the same as a tweaked small 6.
I thought the 200hp 4 was more fun than the stock CIS SC 3 liter 200hp 6. But the six had way more potential.

[Jake Raby]

Grant,
WTF are you referring to the TIV at larger displacement being a conversion???

There is no altered cooling system needed, no ALTERED MOUNTS, NO GRINDING, NO WELDING or any of the things that would be considered "conversion"....

You guys also act like at 200 HP these engines are about to explode at any minute..
Keep in mind that even an F prod 1832cc engine that makes 180+ HP at sub 13:1 CR will last a full SCCA season of 12 races at 45 minutes of duration...

Keep in mind that the 200HP figures we are making are being done with the same OR LOWER CR than a factory six cylinder engine, the percentage of modification isn't that great as we are only increasing displacement by 15% to effectively double the factory power ouput..

Let me see a six that has that amunt of modification to DOUBLE its ouput... How much does that fucker cost???

I like how everyone ignores my offer- guess you girls don't like the six as much as ypu seem..

Or you are scared that I'll embarass all of you in front of your buddies... It would suck to have your "Porsche engine" spanked by a VW engine developed in the backwoods of Georgia- I don't blame you..

[anthony]

How many 200 HP T4 owners do we have on the 914club forum aside from Jake? Nuf said. I'm brutally honest about my six conversion its certainly not wort free, but I didnt expect a $2000 engine to not have a few issues.

It would be interesting for you to track all your expenses in your mild 2270 T4 conversion project. My sense is you are underestimating your conversion costs. This has been billed as the cheap big bore and you got your kit on sale. When do you expect to have your motor built?

Grant, I'll gladly compare costs with you some day. I don't think I'm underestimating any costs. I only need to write 2-3 checks for everything I need which makes expenses pretty easy to track. I'll be in at under $6K with the 2270, new SDS EFI, and a new Mallory distributor. I'm using SSI HE's because I really want heat in my car. Jake tells me that SSIs are fine with the 2270. If I did Megasquirt my whole setup would come in at $5K but it's a lot of extra work and tinkering and I'd rather just be driving the car sooner. My plan is to have it all together for next spring. The actual kit should arrive in the next month or so.

For me, my car, and my wallet I thought this was a great solution to get more power and have a nice hot rod 914. I will have a new engine, new injection, new clutch, basically new everything.

Don't get me wrong. I wouldn't mind owning a big six conversion. I took a ride in a 240hp 3.2 914 with a hot cam and Webers. It was a monster. It was awesome. The guy also has like $30K in the car and it still really needs a 915 conversion (another $8K) to match the engine. If my funds were unlimited I'd love to do a 3.8L six/915 tranny monster of a 914 with flares and wide Fuchs and the whole enchilada.

[Trekkor]

There is no altered cooling system needed, no ALTERED MOUNTS, NO GRINDING, NO WELDING or any of the things that would be considered "conversion"....

I think Grant was referring to the need for aftermarket intake, exhaust, dizzy, fuel delivery and additional cooling if you want it to last *ONE* 30 minute DE session in the summer.

If it doesn't plug'n'play, it's a conversion in my mind (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif)


KT

[grantsfo]

Grant,
WTF are you referring to the TIV at larger displacement being a conversion???

There is no altered cooling system needed, no ALTERED MOUNTS, NO GRINDING, NO WELDING or any of the things that would be considered "conversion"....

You guys also act like at 200 HP these engines are about to explode at any minute..
Keep in mind that even an F prod 1832cc engine that makes 180+ HP at sub 13:1 CR will last a full SCCA season of 12 races at 45 minutes of duration...

Keep in mind that the 200HP figures we are making are being done with the same OR LOWER CR than a factory six cylinder engine, the percentage of modification isn't that great as we are only increasing displacement by 15% to effectively double the factory power ouput..

Let me see a six that has that amunt of modification to DOUBLE its ouput... How much does that fucker cost???

I like how everyone ignores my offer- guess you girls don't like the six as much as ypu seem..

Or you are scared that I'll embarass all of you in front of your buddies... It would suck to have your "Porsche engine" spanked by a VW engine developed in the backwoods of Georgia- I don't blame you..

Jake, Lets be honest now. A big 200 hp T4 is a conversion. You must convert stock fuel delivery system, you must convert stock exhaust system, oil cooling system, stock ignition system, you must upgrade to a clutch that can handle the extra torque. Its a conversion.

If I use your criteria of conversion my six isnt a conversion either. I didnt grind anything, weld anything or alter mounts.

FYI, I get my butt kicked by T4 engines much less capable than your Hillbilly 4's every AX I attend so I think I'm fairly secure in the fact that I wont be embarrassed too badly. I'd love to see one of your engines but all I ever hear is talk.

I'd definitely take you up on the motor swap CHALLENGE. Just beware that once that motor was in my car I'd never come back and you would be stuck with a greasy old six!

[Matt Romanowski]

Trekkor, what size motor do you have? Where you serious in your offer?

[Trekkor]

Trekkor, what size motor do you have? Where you serious in your offer?

2.0 S. The motor swap at the autocross, 6 vs. 4?
Sure, I'd do that. Why not?

It will never happen of course...But, I would do it.


KT

[Jake Raby]

There is no altered cooling system needed, no ALTERED MOUNTS, NO GRINDING, NO WELDING or any of the things that would be considered "conversion"....

I think Grant was referring to the need for aftermarket intake, exhaust, dizzy, fuel delivery and additional cooling if you want it to last *ONE* 30 minute DE session in the summer.

If it doesn't plug'n'play, it's a conversion in my mind (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif)


KT

Then you are confused..

Its not a conversion and YOU DO NOT NEED BETTER ENGINE COOLING THAN STOCK for todays 200 HP/4... OIL COOLING is not engine cooling, most STOCK -4 engines need an external oil cooler for a D/E event in the middle of the summer..

None of that is considered a conversion, they are UPDATES...

You guys that have never done this don't understand the fact that one of these engines can be installed in one weekend by ONE PERSON including the oil system... I have done it many times by myself..

The factory pressure plate will hold 200HP, all you need is a 85 dollar clutch disc- thats not a conversion unless you weld the pressure plate on!

The Mallory unilite drops in and installs in 1/2 hours, is that a conversion- nope, nit unless you are totally lost and have no clue as to what a 13mm wrench looks like..


Its very obvious that you guys are totally lost on the subject of what it really takes to install one of these engines, if you call the reinstall of an engine thats only had its displacement increased a "concversion" you need to do some more research..

So I guess if you have a 3.0 six and you pull it out and make it a 3.2 its a "conversion"?? By your standards it is..

Bullshit.

Anyone who wants to hear a testimonial from a 914 club member that has a 202 HP 2316 in his 914 can download this radio show from my archives
4th Dimension Radio

To me a six cylinder engine just means it has two more rod bearings to wear, 4 more rod bolts to break and 4 more valves to drop.. More parts = more chances for mechanical failure... Its all about doing more with LESS!

Oh yeah, where is that six cylinder that doubles its HP with 15% displacement gain... better yet where is the 2.4L six that can top this power on PUMP GAS N/A
(IMG:http://www.aircooledtechnology.com/mightyspyder_dyno.jpg)

[Jake Raby]

Trekkor, what size motor do you have? Where you serious in your offer?

2.0 S. The motor swap at the autocross, 6 vs. 4?
Sure, I'd do that. Why not?

It will never happen of course...But, I would do it.


KT

Absolutely... Take it to a Chassis dyno and post the results. I'll create a /4 that makes similar power and it's game on.. Like i said, I'll need till mid summer to make it happen, but its not a problem..

I'd like to use the 200HP realm for the comparison, since everyone thinks the engine won't last a day... They forget that I drove a 2270 cross country at an average speed of 76 MPH in 4.5 days and then pulled 94 MPH in the Qtr mile with it..

[Matt Romanowski]

Jake, we have a taker. A 2 liter with S cams and compression should be around 180 horse. Close enough - we have to start somewhere.

Let's put this together. I'd even manage to find a flight out if I got to drive (IMG:style_emoticons/default/aktion035.gif)

[Jake Raby]

OK, that will be close..
Like I said, we'd need a chassis dyno report so I could make sure the two engines were as similar as possible...

My 181 HP engine in my 914 made 157 RWHP...

But I'd REALLY like to make it over 200 ponies from each engine..