subie engine Options

[dimitri]

Well Tony, you have been running your car with the 2.5 Suby now for awhile. I am sure you are happy with the performance. How about noise level at highway speeds
and gas consumption? Dimitri

[project-914]

nasioc.com that has everything you could ever know about subaru engines...I have a wrx with a canister exhaust (that when you hold it up you can see out the other side)...people think it's a fartcan but it's 3" all the way back from the turbo...jokes on them when I start the car...it sounds damn good, I only get complements about how good a tuned subie motor sounds...my exhaust is an Espelir JGT...if you wan the same low pitched boxer rumble but a lot quieter you can't go wrong with the Borla Hush...just make sure you take it to get tuned (the ecu, because subaru motors are nice, but can be a bitch when they're not tuned and the tune makes all the difference in the world)

[Literati914]

Thanks for that link, I'll check it out.

Doug C

[mrdezyne]

Well Tony, you have been running your car with the 2.5 Suby now for awhile. I am sure you are happy with the performance. How about gas consumption? Dimitri

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/popcorn[1].gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/popcorn[1].gif)

[mike_the_man]

What about a rough estimate of costs associated? I'm considering either a Subie, or rebuilding the 2.0L I have in, as well as adding EFI. Either way, I'd have a considerably more modern car. So which way would be more cost effective?

[TonyAKAVW]

I am very happy with the EJ25 engine. For a 914 its basically a type4 on steroids. It has lots of torque, and pulls all the way to the ECU limited 6300 RPM. I am thinking of supercharging it sometime in the future, but its just an idea at this point.

Right now I'm getting somewhere around 30 mpg. Most of my driving is not on the highway and I still haven't gotten over how fun it is, so I do step on the gas quite a bit.

The noise on the freeway is loud. Actually, the car is loud period. I stripped out all the sound insulation, the backpad, the tar on the floor, etc. It would not be hard to put a quiet exuahst on a Subaru engine.

-Tony

[TonyAKAVW]

What about a rough estimate of costs associated? I'm considering either a Subie, or rebuilding the 2.0L I have in, as well as adding EFI. Either way, I'd have a considerably more modern car. So which way would be more cost effective?

Depnds on a lot. I did my conversion for somewhere around $3-4k. I didn't strictly do a budget conversion as I did some extra things like add fiberglass bumpers, do a cable shifter conversion, and a fully custom exhaust. I did however make my own engine mounting system, all the wiring, put the radiator in the back etc. If you are going to do a Renegade style conversion and use a turbo motor, figure $7k

Now, as far as what is more cost effective.... It really depends a lot on what you want out of it. If you want >150 HP its quite possibly cheaper to do a Subaru conversion. Below 150 HP it depends on how much you are willing to do yourself, etc. There are other things besides horsepower to consider though. If you are interested in keeping the car true to its origins, a Type4 might be better for you. If you want long term reliability, modern EFI, easy power upgrades, etc., then the Subaru engine will probably be more cost effective. (All those things are possible with a Type4, just not cheaply)

If you are happy with 100 HP and the reliability of a well sorted D-Jet or Megasquirt system (which can be quite good) then rebuild the 2.0. It will probably be cheaper than doing a Subaru conversion unless you are bound and determined to do it as cheaply as possible.

-Tony

[Mueller]

I drove Fiids Suby 2.0(?) turbo a few months ago, currently non-intercooled and guessimated to have about 180 hp....

With another person riding shotgun , the car just flat out hauled and was a blast to drive...sound at idle was nice and at WOT was music to the ears and not obnoxious at all...compared to my 911 with a 3.6 in it, I would bet they would be neck to neck against each other depending on the challange..

I've driven 3.0 (and smaller) /6 conversions and a few V8 conversions (up to 400hp) and I really enjoyed the Subaru conversion and would use that motor over any other current water cooled engine if I went that route....

[mike_the_man]

Now, as far as what is more cost effective.... It really depends a lot on what you want out of it. If you want >150 HP its quite possibly cheaper to do a Subaru conversion. Below 150 HP it depends on how much you are willing to do yourself, etc. There are other things besides horsepower to consider though. If you are interested in keeping the car true to its origins, a Type4 might be better for you. If you want long term reliability, modern EFI, easy power upgrades, etc., then the Subaru engine will probably be more cost effective. (All those things are possible with a Type4, just not cheaply)

If you are happy with 100 HP and the reliability of a well sorted D-Jet or Megasquirt system (which can be quite good) then rebuild the 2.0. It will probably be cheaper than doing a Subaru conversion unless you are bound and determined to do it as cheaply as possible.

-Tony

I'm not too concerned with power at this point. May main issue is reliability. As much as I like the D-Jet, it's starting to scare me a bit (MPS prices, etc). I figure my two options are rebuild the stock 2.0L and install some type of modern FI. I was looking at SDS on Jake's site. I think a little too much DIY with the MegaSquirt, so I'm looking for more of a bolt on solution.

The other option is to convert to a Subie motor and get all of the reliability and potential power upgrades that come with it.

So, if I can convert to a Subie for around the same cost as a rebuild and FI, then the subie conversion is the way to go. But if it will be significantly cheaper to rebuild the stock 2.0L, then I guess I should go that way.

Either way I'm thinking this ain't gonna be cheap. Better pull out the calculator.

[biosurfer1]

from what i'm finding, I think you hit the nail on the head with "DIY" meaning the more you're able to do youself, the cheaper it will be...for either direction

[TonyAKAVW]

If Megasquirt is too much DIY, then a DIY Subaru conversion will be worse. That means you are going to need to go with the renegade setup, and even if you go with a 2.2L or 2.5L non-turbo motor you are looking at $5-$6k minimum.

To me it sounds like you'd be best off with a properly rebuilt 2.0 and Jake's SDS system. That will probably end up costing just less than a non-DIY Subaru conversion.

-Tony

[mike_the_man]

Thanks for all the info Tony. I followed your thread with interest, and I know that my fabrication skills are no where near as good as yours, so I would likely be looking at getting at least the Renegade mount and rad setup. I'm sure the easiest way to go is a rebuild on the 2.0L. But the Subie power potential is very tempting. Oh well, I've got all winter to think about this.

Cheers!

[Mueller]

I'm not too concerned with power at this point. May main issue is reliability. As much as I like the D-Jet, it's starting to scare me a bit (MPS prices, etc). I figure my two options are rebuild the stock 2.0L and install some type of modern FI. I was looking at SDS on Jake's site. I think a little too much DIY with the MegaSquirt, so I'm looking for more of a bolt on solution.

The other option is to convert to a Subie motor and get all of the reliability and potential power upgrades that come with it.

So, if I can convert to a Subie for around the same cost as a rebuild and FI, then the subie conversion is the way to go. But if it will be significantly cheaper to rebuild the stock 2.0L, then I guess I should go that way.

Either way I'm thinking this ain't gonna be cheap. Better pull out the calculator.

Putting a brand new or modern engine into your 914 has NO real bearing on how reliable the car is going to be....just this week a Suby conversion had blown up his motor from an accidential overboost...and others have had issues with overheating/loss of coolant which left their 914 unuseable till the problem was fixed.

Like I mentioned above, I loved the suby converted car I drove, but you are creating false hope that the car will be 100% reliable due a newer engine.

it's like computer programming, garbage in = garbarge out

[Crazyhippy]

My motor becoming a drastically overpriced paperweight was my fault. I am the person that routed the hose where i shouldn't have.

The motor has proven itself as reliable as the type 4, and i am running a wierd set-up (stand alone pushing way more boost than is recomended for the stock turbo).

AS far as sound, i was running a cheepy "turbo" muffler, and then a glasspack. It was too quiet (no exhaust noise over 65MPH). Now i have just a glasspack, and it's just about perfect. Have to stay off the throttle in my neighborhood early or late, but everywhere else i love it.

You also have to be concerned w/ the rest of the parts on the car. There has been one wrx conversion and restoration whos window came off track... these things dont happen in modern cars.

If you dont mind doing some work yourself, i'll do a suby over a type 4 or 6 conversion anyday (biased as i may be)

BJH

[TonyAKAVW]

Putting a brand new or modern engine into your 914 has NO real bearing on how reliable the car is going to be

That was at the root of my suggestion that he stick to a 2.0 type 4 with EFI. The fact that there are a ton of Type 4 engines out there running after 35 years proves they are reliable. The fuel injection system has proved not to be as reliable, and difficult for many to troubleshoot. Adding a proper EFI system to a fresh 2.0 type IV should prove to be a very reliable combination. In fact that is probably going to be a lot more reliable than a Subaru conversion, unless it was done by professionals like Renegade. I would have a lot of confidence in a complete conversion done by them. A DIY conversion will be as reliable as the person wants it to be.

I have not and will not say that I have as of yet had no problems with my car, because if I do that I will start having problems. My overheating has been manageable, and I have taken it easy, to the point where I have not had any issues with that. Being a work in progress I am putting in a front radiator soon to help with that.

BJ's primary goal (I assume) was not reliability. 300 RWHP in a narrow bodied 901 transmissioned 914 is not what I would consider a design motivated strictly by reliability (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

-Tony

[andys]

Tony et al,

Is there perhaps a modern FI system that can be robbed from another car? There's been a VW Rabbit FI swap to a T4 done, I believe. Anything else? Is there a good candidate car that has a stand alone EFI that could be adapted? Seems something like this could be found for cheap at a wreaking yard. Toyota 22RE? Tons of those out there. Coolant temp sensors might be an issue that I could foresee.

Andys

[Crazyhippy]

only 286 so far...

And i never would have considered driving to Moab w/ the stock motor.

Tony I have an extra Turbo when you get the itch... also should have most of the exhaust stuff ready to bolt on...

Have to do pistons and drop the Compression, or run race gas thugh :-(

BJH

[TonyAKAVW]

Is there perhaps a modern FI system that can be robbed from another car?

I am no expert whatsoever on FI, so I don't know. It seems though that the work required to modify a FI system for another engine would be way more than to just do a megasquirt type setup.

only 286 so far...

286 rounds up to 300. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Tony I have an extra Turbo when you get the itch... also should have most of the exhaust stuff ready to bolt on...

You know, turbos are cool and stuff, but I want to see how a supercharger will work out. As you point out, the compression of the EJ25 does present a problem for forced induction. First though I'll need to put megasquirt or something like that on my engine. In time...

-Tony

[pankopp]

TonyAKAVW, you said you made your own mounts and all that jazz, i was wondering if you had any good pics of the set-up or process... you know. I am in the process of finding a 2.5 or 2.0 motor to thrown in a teener. I got bored with my WRX so i'm moving on to a 914

Thanks in advance...


andrew

[TonyAKAVW]

Why yes I do (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I have a thread here with 25 pages of all the details and progress with lots and lots of pictures.

My progress thread

-Tony